Kokufu 2017

[treeman]

This zelkova has the beginnings of the plate formation.

zel1.JPG

This is Muata's famous Zelkova
It was about 70 years old when this pic was taken. It is now some 90 years old and still no plate.

zel2.JPG

It also has a lot to do with how these trees are treated in the growing fields and how aggressively they are fed, grown and pruned when being trained. I would guess that the first one is much younger than the second.

[Boics]

Surely the fact that we refer and clearly assimilate this root structure with "dinner plates" should yield a clue as to how unnatural this is..

Unless some of you grow dinner plates?

[Jow]

Hey Jow, Leaving the nebari aside for a moment, if those maple groups are the same, surely you would have to say that the overall quality of the composition has gone way down if we consider gracefulness, elegance, smooth transition in the ramification, overall naturalness, vision, restraint, etc etc ?? To me the 1933 image appears created by a thoughtful master, and the 2001 group by a beginner. I agree there is no right and wrong but there definitely is good and bad (and everything in between of course)

The group is not a perfect example but does show how tridents in particular will lean towards fusing their bases when grown in shallow containers over a long period of time. I agree that i like the styling of the earlier picture more than the more recent picture but i am sure there will be many out there that have the opposite thoughts.

if we consider gracefulness, elegance, smooth transition in the ramification, overall naturalness, vision, restraint, etc etc ??

That's a whole other discussion. If bonsai is an art (another discussion again) then the aims of the artist will be many and varied and difficult to compare between.

The hornbeam I think has improved in ramification but the quality has pretty much remained. As we know, quality has nothing to do with age...or size for that matter. For example, very old bark on a particular pine is certainly desirable, but it does not follow that it is automatically of higher quality than a younger pine.....If you know what I mean.
I just thought I'd throw that in.

I get what you mean but i think age can excuse many issues and faults and in fact improve 'quality'. But yes a tree's merit is often a result of its raw form and that rarely changes dramatically over time. Ie. a bad tree will often only grow into an old bad tree where as a good tree will grow into an excellent one.

[Jow]

This zelkova has the beginnings of the plate formation.

zel1.JPG

This is Muata's famous Zelkova
It was about 70 years old when this pic was taken. It is now some 90 years old and still no plate.

zel2.JPG

It also has a lot to do with how these trees are treated in the growing fields and how aggressively they are fed, grown and pruned when being trained. I would guess that the first one is much younger than the second.

There are always exceptions of course. Perhaps the top tree was the result of a layer? Perhaps it has been in a shallow container longer? Zelkova certainly are not as susceptible to fusing as the maples are and perhaps the top one had to be encouraged more? Perhaps its a different cultivar or seed strain? Who knows.

[Jow]

Similarly Jow with your plane tree - it's still in proportion.

That's an interesting point considering most bonsai we grow utilise exaggerated proportions. If you were to scale up many bonsai trunks they would be wider than Boabs!

Why is it acceptable to scale up or play with certain proportions and not others?

Another interesting discussion. haha.

[Jow]

This zelkova has the beginnings of the plate formation.

zel1.JPG

This is Muata's famous Zelkova
It was about 70 years old when this pic was taken. It is now some 90 years old and still no plate.

zel2.JPG

It also has a lot to do with how these trees are treated in the growing fields and how aggressively they are fed, grown and pruned when being trained. I would guess that the first one is much younger than the second.

Oh and its sad but the tree has been in decline recently...

download.jpg

And a very old pic of the same tree to fill in either side of the picture you posted.

0803fb9c42a24d73a9c781e8c36d3549.jpg

[Jow]

Surely the fact that we refer and clearly assimilate this root structure with "dinner plates" should yield a clue as to how unnatural this is..

Unless some of you grow dinner plates?

The question is whether 'natural' is what you are trying to achieve?

[treeman]

[quote="Jow"]
Oh and its sad but the tree has been in decline recently...

download.jpg

Yes I noticed that just the other day. Very sad, hopefully someone takes charge of it and gets it going again!

[bonsaisensation]

Looks like there is an overwhelming amount of people who dislike the the exaggerated nebari. I agree that it can be a bit distasteful if taken too far out of proportion. But I'd love to have grown any of the the trees in discussion.
However, i sincerely hope that this discussion doesn't send the message to those of us who are still learning the craft that achieving nebari like the Japanese deciduous trees is what we should steer away from. On the contrary, I still see a need for people to learn to root prune properly. Just don't take it as far as some of the examples.

Regards

Tien

[Nate.bonsai]

Nice assessment wrcmad. Very considered.


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[Nate.bonsai]

And also congrats to all on a really considered and measured debate. No sniping etc and we have re-covered or re-opened many wormy cans that in the past have generated too heated debate. Well played everyone. Keepin' it nice.


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[treeman]

Looks like there is an overwhelming amount of people who dislike the the exaggerated nebari. I agree that it can be a bit distasteful if taken too far out of proportion. But I'd love to have grown any of the the trees in discussion.
However, i sincerely hope that this discussion doesn't send the message to those of us who are still learning the craft that achieving nebari like the Japanese deciduous trees is what we should steer away from. On the contrary, I still see a need for people to learn to root prune properly. Just don't take it as far as some of the examples.

Regards

Tien

That will probably be based on personal preference Tien. I used to be very obsessive when it came to nice even nebaris but as long as there are supporting roots all round now I don't bother so much. Even more, I see a perfect nebari looks out of place with many kinds of trees. For example Flowering apricots, junipers, wisteria and probably many of the free-form natives like coastal tea tree etc. as well.