Rules were meant to be broken

[Asus101]

As for the other part, I havnt read most of the walls of text, I have a headache and homesick..

Sorry Pup but the ignorance is astounding

lol, really. I read some of it, but with a headache its hard to take in.

[Bretts]

Your giving me a headache

[Asus101]

Your giving me a headache

good, no pain, no gain.

[sreeve]

Gee Whiz Brett and Pup,

I hope this common ground doesnt spell the end of the freindly banter and of use of emoticons (or whatever they are called)

I always enjoy the occasionaly jibe amongst your learned words.

Regards
Steve

[Bretts]

No worries sreeve it will be a long time before aus wakes up to himself by the looks of it

[Chris H]

Wow. I just got through reading what happened since I last visited.
This is great reading. I think the concensus that the rules are really useful but that they are really guidelines that are used to determine how a tree may fit is the right way to go.

Now back up the thread to find those links from Brett.

[Bretts]

I hope the grading went well Hartos we have had some fun since you last commented
It is only a small thing but I think guidelines is the wrong word.
Think of it this way the design principles or rules are there to ensure the composition works. If I can use Emils words "A design either works or it doesn't. A design that only works in part is an unsuccessful design"
So when I here that the rules are a guide I think that we are saying that as a Guide the design should work. I would rather say as a Rule a design must work.
I say the rules must be adhered to but you must translate the rules to work for the tree. It might be a small thing but I believe it makes a difference in these times of Rules shmools thinking.

Guidelines don't need to be studied and dissected every time you style a tree the rules or design principles do
It is really about studying the rules and not ignoring them though.

[Pup]

One thing mate I do not need Viagra. I grow my own pain management and it works wonder's for our libido. What made me grumpy was the fuzz were always raiding my stock

TMI!!

Agreed! wow MASSIVE overshare!

lol i did not need to know pup!

Don't read it then

[Asus101]

No worries sreeve it will be a long time before aus wakes up to himself by the looks of it

This is one of those things we both agree on just in different words lol.

[aaron_tas]

wow

im away just a couple of days and i come back to 4 pages of bonsai design principals...

GOOD WORK

now i know its already been thrashed, but after reading the ENTIRE thread and its affiliated links, i feel i have something to share.

pup, you say robert lost the crowd, i say the crowd lost robert.

i come from an artistic background and can relate very well the "rules" that he teaches.

i feel the design principals that the western world have so dearly clung to are by no means useless. nor are they to be followed perfectly to create a masterpiece, that is most unlikely. i like many others have learned well these "rules" and i alone decide when and how they are applied, with respect to the material at hand, and the relationship i would have between the viewer and the work.

i firmly believe (strongly influenced by robert stevens) that there is many more "rules" that the unsuspecting hobbyist is to consider, regarding such things as line, form, composition, balance, tone, etc.(for a comprehensive list, read all books on painting, sculpture and photography). robert's book vision of my soul is great for this.

there is more to art than "rules", but even the greatest artists follow the footsteps of thier predecessors in the beginning.

i have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, and hope i bored no one with my waffle...

[Bretts]

Great to hear your view Aaron I believe you when you say that you have learned the rules well. I bet you have read one or two of those articles before but it is refreshing to read them again. I would bet you could answer many more questions about the rules than I (although that would not be hard )
I agree with almost all that you say and again it may just be a simple case of the same thoughts coming out in different words but I am a firm believer in you eventually believe what you say so I think it is important to get the words right on this.
I would like it if I could hear more from you on this.
You say

i like many others have learned well these "rules" and i alone decide when and how they are applied, with respect to the material at hand, and the relationship i would have between the viewer and the work.

You say you decide when and how to use the rules. Which I take implies that some times you don't use a rule? This could be certain rules that you believe is not always important or it could be any rule for any number of reasons.
I would find it very beneficial if you could choose a rule and tell me when you have not or would not use it in a composition. I read Brent's list of rules and there are some there I have never even heard of before so I hope you don't go too easy on yourself.
Here is an example one if you have trouble choosing.

Curves in trunk should not result in 'pigeon breast' (roundness toward viewer).

It would be even better if you could show one of your trees as an example

[anttal63]

pup, you say robert lost the crowd, i say the crowd lost robert.
i come from an artistic background and can relate very well the "rules" that he teaches.
i feel the design principals that the western world have so dearly clung to are by no means useless. nor are they to be followed perfectly to create a masterpiece, that is most unlikely. i like many others have learned well these "rules" and i alone decide when and how they are applied, with respect to the
material at hand, and the relationship i would have between the viewer and the work.
i firmly believe (strongly influenced by robert stevens) that there is many more "rules" that the unsuspecting hobbyist is to consider, regarding such things as line, form, composition, balance, tone, etc.(for a comprehensive list, read all books on painting, sculpture and photography). robert's book vision of my soul is great for this.
there is more to art than "rules", but even the greatest artists follow the footsteps of thier predecessors in the beginning.
i have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, and hope i bored no one with my waffle...

robert is coming to melbourne next month. to utalise a talent of this caliber you need to give him great stock (not just ok or good stock)to work on and he will soon put his money where his mouth is. i hope and pray that northwest has the good sense to make sure that happens.
love ya thinking on this azz and if i may; for any of you who are into robert stevens, you will love francois jeker, bonsai aesthetics!
these 2 guys are professionals in the principles of art and interpeting them for bonsai.

[aaron_tas]

ok...

to use your example

Curves in trunk should not result in 'pigeon breast' (roundness toward viewer).

now this one is not mine, it is Daizo Iwasaki's (from morten's awesome site shohin europe), but see if you can count how many 'pigeon breasts' you can see...

pigeon breast.jpg

i also have just recentlty put together a setting of privet with jermaine (which makes it a hardknocksbonsai setting) and we chose the main tree based on the crossing trunk at the top, they cross and then fuse again just above the cross. this was a setting for "the ladies" showing a unity at the top while a sort of romantic dancing cuddle may be suggested.

privet setting 1.jpg

privet setting 2.jpg

privet setting 3.jpg

thanks ant, and i havent seen franswaa but i will surely check him out, come to think of it i have heard his name dropped somewhere before...

[aaron_tas]

oh, and if anyone alse were to put the setting together, it would have been different, and had a different message...

with respect to the material at hand

would you chose a different angle for the juniper, or cut off the offending breasts ( breasts )

this artist has not.

it also relates to your artistic ability as an artist...

[Pup]

We had two yes two Art teacher's walk out on the show. Not just my summation. As with this thread no two people think the same. Of the subject.
As I have said you do not push your barrow, you make up the general discussion. .
One thing you must not do at any forum is talk down to people. You will always loose an audience .

There are many Artist's that cannot draw, but can paint very well, as with Bonsai I do not think I do a bad job, but I cannot draw. So a comment like if you can't draw, you cannot make a good Bonsai is in my mind redundant. I do not care who he is.

A good Bonsai teacher can and should be able to create with what he/ she is given. Not a masterpiece but a Bonsai in training. Some stock is harder to work than other's.
It is always better to have good stock, if you do not have that take along a tree for improvement.
That way you will find out what the ( rules ) guidelines are all about.

In some cases it is done with a piece of stock that has been worked by another teacher!!. So we can all make judgements. Then on what is right or wrong.
The pictures posted at the beginning of this thread shows one tree that is considered an. Important Bonsai Masterpiece, but all three have some of the (rules ) guidelines broken, or utilised differently. As with Aaron 's picture of the Shohin. Would you not like this tree on your bench.

Guidelines can be bent and twisted like the trunk and branches. My argument is RULES are rigid like law inflexible. You must know either before you can move forward.
Or you will fail . Just my summation, of those ( rules ) guidelines. Pup

PS both were University trained teacher's of art.