Another JBP Progression
- melbrackstone
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 3478
- Joined: December 15th, 2015, 8:05 pm
- Favorite Species: the ones that live
- Bonsai Age: 28
- Bonsai Club: Redlands, BIMER, VNBC
- Location: Brisbane
- Has thanked: 1222 times
- Been thanked: 743 times
- Contact:
Re: Another JBP Progression
Cheers Matt, it's great to get so many different takes on the guidelines.
I do need to study Wabi Sabi in detail, thanks!
I do need to study Wabi Sabi in detail, thanks!
- treeman
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 2842
- Joined: August 15th, 2011, 4:47 pm
- Favorite Species: any
- Bonsai Age: 25
- Location: melbourne
- Has thanked: 29 times
- Been thanked: 578 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
Hi Matt,bunce wrote:
The masculine and feminine aspects of pots are subtle and profound, however all the principles we apply to bonsai have their roots (pardon he pun) in Wabi Sabi. Wabi Sabi is a fascinating thing to study, it gives you a different perspective on the world, not just your bonsai collection. Whats clear in the Wabi Sabi teachings is that nothing is black and white, everything is varying degrees of grey. What some consider tall, other consider short whats masculine is feminine, and what is, is not.
What you are saying rings more of the Yin and Yang to me.
I've also studied the wabi sabi concept and I think I have a pretty firm basic understanding of it. Hence, I feel pretty confident in saying that as far as modern bonsai is concerned, wabi sabi is almost non existent. Even in the general Japanese psyche we don't see it anymore. The intrusive influence of the Western world has largely taken over. This in itself is neither good or bad but pretty hard to refute. Most contemporary Japanese would have no idea what wabi sabi was even though they may have heard of it. I would be hard pressed to find a bonsai which displays wabi sabi although they do exist. Certainly none of mine do.
Happy to explore this fascinating subject further if you are interested.
Last edited by treeman on July 27th, 2017, 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike
- bunce
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 206
- Joined: September 24th, 2009, 11:18 pm
- Favorite Species: Black Pine
- Bonsai Age: 20
- Bonsai Club: BONSAI NW
- Location: melbourne
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 22 times
- Contact:
Re: Another JBP Progression
What you are saying rings more of the Yin and Yang to me.
Hence, I feel pretty confident in saying that as far as modern bonsai is concerned, wabi sabi is almost non existent. Even in the general Japanese psyche we don't see it anymore.
[/quote]
Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist. The best texts I've read on bonsai, start with Wabi Sabi. The best teachings from my Oyakata were about wabi sabi, and its role in bonsai. I am prepared to say that Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi. Mostly we hear about the use of the wabi sabi philosophy when talking in terms of Japanese gardens, and there is much literature on that too. But to say Wabi Sabi does not exist in bonsai anymore is just plain bonkers.
Yin and Yang are two opposing tidal forces, that cancel each other out, leaving balance. This is a Chinese philosophy that began previously to Wabi Sabi and was the founding inspiration for the father of Wabi Sabi.
Matt.
Hence, I feel pretty confident in saying that as far as modern bonsai is concerned, wabi sabi is almost non existent. Even in the general Japanese psyche we don't see it anymore.
[/quote]
Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist. The best texts I've read on bonsai, start with Wabi Sabi. The best teachings from my Oyakata were about wabi sabi, and its role in bonsai. I am prepared to say that Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi. Mostly we hear about the use of the wabi sabi philosophy when talking in terms of Japanese gardens, and there is much literature on that too. But to say Wabi Sabi does not exist in bonsai anymore is just plain bonkers.
Yin and Yang are two opposing tidal forces, that cancel each other out, leaving balance. This is a Chinese philosophy that began previously to Wabi Sabi and was the founding inspiration for the father of Wabi Sabi.
Matt.
Hakuju-En Bonsai Nursery - Shohin - Mame - Tokoname Pots - Display Tables - Repot - Styling work - https://hakujuenbonsai.com/
- treeman
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 2842
- Joined: August 15th, 2011, 4:47 pm
- Favorite Species: any
- Bonsai Age: 25
- Location: melbourne
- Has thanked: 29 times
- Been thanked: 578 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
I detect a note of aggression in this reply. But,bunce wrote: Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist. The best texts I've read on bonsai, start with Wabi Sabi. The best teachings from my Oyakata were about wabi sabi, and its role in bonsai. I am prepared to say that Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi. Mostly we hear about the use of the wabi sabi philosophy when talking in terms of Japanese gardens, and there is much literature on that too. But to say Wabi Sabi does not exist in bonsai anymore is just plain bonkers.
Yin and Yang are two opposing tidal forces, that cancel each other out, leaving balance. This is a Chinese philosophy that began previously to Wabi Sabi and was the founding inspiration for the father of Wabi Sabi.
Matt.
Please explain, if you will, this statement....
And this also....Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist
Also please explain the concept of wabi sabi the way you understand it. Then I will give mine. Maybe then we can get somewhere because at the moment I suspect that we don't agree about it or understand it the same way.Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi.
Also feel free to post examples of bonsai which display this concept for you.
Last edited by treeman on July 27th, 2017, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike
-
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 1969
- Joined: May 21st, 2009, 3:42 pm
- Favorite Species: Flowering
- Bonsai Age: 12
- Bonsai Club: BSV
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 1168 times
- Been thanked: 246 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
Personally, given the choice I prefer the first pot. There is something not balanced with the new pot.
No Wabi Sabi, Ying Yang, whoodoo voodoo. Just personal choice to my eye the first one was better.
Cheers
Kirky
No Wabi Sabi, Ying Yang, whoodoo voodoo. Just personal choice to my eye the first one was better.
Cheers
Kirky
Great oaks from little acorns grow.
- Keep Calm and Ramify
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 978
- Joined: April 1st, 2017, 11:50 am
- Bonsai Age: 0
- Location: Newcastle NSW
- Has thanked: 413 times
- Been thanked: 454 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
Mr Treeman,
Maybe a new post needs to start on this "wabi-sabi" discussion topic?
I always thought in it's simplest form, that it meant something like seeing beauty in imperfection (or perfectly imperfect?)
Would be interested to learn more.
Maybe a new post needs to start on this "wabi-sabi" discussion topic?
I always thought in it's simplest form, that it meant something like seeing beauty in imperfection (or perfectly imperfect?)
Would be interested to learn more.
-
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: September 15th, 2014, 8:04 pm
- Favorite Species: Juniper
- Bonsai Age: 8
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 17 times
- Been thanked: 106 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
I'm intrigued by this tree / pot. It's interesting hearing discussion about wabi sabi / yin yang ect. too.
What's the plan with this tree over the next few seasons??
Would you consider letting the left branch extend over the rim of the pot?
What's the plan with this tree over the next few seasons??
Would you consider letting the left branch extend over the rim of the pot?
- treeman
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 2842
- Joined: August 15th, 2011, 4:47 pm
- Favorite Species: any
- Bonsai Age: 25
- Location: melbourne
- Has thanked: 29 times
- Been thanked: 578 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
I don't know if many would be interested KC but yes beauty in imperfection.Keep Calm and Ramify wrote: Mr Treeman,
Maybe a new post needs to start on this "wabi-sabi" discussion topic?
I always thought in it's simplest form, that it meant something like seeing beauty in imperfection (or perfectly imperfect?)
Would be interested to learn more.
Mike
- dansai
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 1261
- Joined: May 17th, 2010, 5:33 pm
- Favorite Species: Aussie Natives
- Bonsai Age: 5
- Bonsai Club: Coffs Harbour
- Location: Mid North Coast, NSW, Australia
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 130 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
I have a song, that like all bonsai, is not yet finished. It is called "dischordiest harmony". Is that we are saying wabi sabi is? Something that breaks the mould/rules/expections/something that has come before, yet brings balance to the world?
Last edited by dansai on July 28th, 2017, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Travelling the Mid North Coast of NSW and beyond to attend Markets and other events
www.bonsaibus.com.au - www.facebook.com/TheBonsaiBus - www.instagram.com/thebonsaibus
www.bonsaibus.com.au - www.facebook.com/TheBonsaiBus - www.instagram.com/thebonsaibus
- bunce
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 206
- Joined: September 24th, 2009, 11:18 pm
- Favorite Species: Black Pine
- Bonsai Age: 20
- Bonsai Club: BONSAI NW
- Location: melbourne
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 22 times
- Contact:
Re: Another JBP Progression
treeman wrote:I detect a note of aggression in this reply. But,bunce wrote: Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist. The best texts I've read on bonsai, start with Wabi Sabi. The best teachings from my Oyakata were about wabi sabi, and its role in bonsai. I am prepared to say that Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi. Mostly we hear about the use of the wabi sabi philosophy when talking in terms of Japanese gardens, and there is much literature on that too. But to say Wabi Sabi does not exist in bonsai anymore is just plain bonkers.
Yin and Yang are two opposing tidal forces, that cancel each other out, leaving balance. This is a Chinese philosophy that began previously to Wabi Sabi and was the founding inspiration for the father of Wabi Sabi.
Matt.
Please explain, if you will, this statement....And this also....Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not existAlso please explain the concept of wabi sabi the way you understand it. Then I will give mine. Maybe then we can get somewhere because at the moment I suspect that we don't agree about it or understand it the same way.Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi.
Also feel free to post examples of bonsai which display this concept for you.
as suggested ill start another thread about Wabi Sabi and put a link in this thread, just not this week.
Matt
Hakuju-En Bonsai Nursery - Shohin - Mame - Tokoname Pots - Display Tables - Repot - Styling work - https://hakujuenbonsai.com/
- bunce
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 206
- Joined: September 24th, 2009, 11:18 pm
- Favorite Species: Black Pine
- Bonsai Age: 20
- Bonsai Club: BONSAI NW
- Location: melbourne
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 22 times
- Contact:
Re: Another JBP Progression
dansai wrote:I have a song, that like all bonsai, is not yet finished. It is called "dischordiest harmony". Is that we are saying wabi sabi is? Something that breaks the mould/rules/expections/something that has come before, yet brings balance to the world?
Just think about the beauty in Jin, cracked bark, Old pots, ext.
Matt
Hakuju-En Bonsai Nursery - Shohin - Mame - Tokoname Pots - Display Tables - Repot - Styling work - https://hakujuenbonsai.com/
- Keep Calm and Ramify
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 978
- Joined: April 1st, 2017, 11:50 am
- Bonsai Age: 0
- Location: Newcastle NSW
- Has thanked: 413 times
- Been thanked: 454 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
Bunce,
I will look forward to your topic thread on the meaning on wabi-sabi.
If it is THE defining philosophy of bonsai as you've previously stated, then I feel I need to know more...
(nerdy study glasses are on )
I will look forward to your topic thread on the meaning on wabi-sabi.
If it is THE defining philosophy of bonsai as you've previously stated, then I feel I need to know more...
(nerdy study glasses are on )
- bunce
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 206
- Joined: September 24th, 2009, 11:18 pm
- Favorite Species: Black Pine
- Bonsai Age: 20
- Bonsai Club: BONSAI NW
- Location: melbourne
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 22 times
- Contact:
Re: Another JBP Progression
Keep Calm and Ramify wrote: Bunce,
I will look forward to your topic thread on the meaning on wabi-sabi.
If it is THE defining philosophy of bonsai as you've previously stated, then I feel I need to know more...
(nerdy study glasses are on )
I have put im part 1 (the introduction to WabiSabi) here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24498 so that we can continue the dicussion of wabi sabi there. But here, lets just dicuss the tree. And for the most part, itll be updates from season to season.
Matt
Hakuju-En Bonsai Nursery - Shohin - Mame - Tokoname Pots - Display Tables - Repot - Styling work - https://hakujuenbonsai.com/
- Keep Calm and Ramify
- Aussie Bonsai Fan
- Posts: 978
- Joined: April 1st, 2017, 11:50 am
- Bonsai Age: 0
- Location: Newcastle NSW
- Has thanked: 413 times
- Been thanked: 454 times
Re: Another JBP Progression
Bunce
Thank you so much for following through & sharing your thoughts on the "W-S" topic.
In keeping this post on topic, I would also like to mention that I really admire your tree here (something that I forgot to mention earlier.) Pots will come & go....
P.S I really like the remnants of the scar at the trunk base as is , it has healed nicely & the subtle hint of damage looks just fine.
I look forward to seeing future updates / progression shots in the future.
All the best.
Thank you so much for following through & sharing your thoughts on the "W-S" topic.
In keeping this post on topic, I would also like to mention that I really admire your tree here (something that I forgot to mention earlier.) Pots will come & go....
P.S I really like the remnants of the scar at the trunk base as is , it has healed nicely & the subtle hint of damage looks just fine.
I look forward to seeing future updates / progression shots in the future.
All the best.