Rules were meant to be broken

Bretts · Post by **Bretts** » October 6th, 2009, 10:26 pm

Have no idea what you mean by spoon again but you should know that you where the exception to that comment

Bretts · Post by **Bretts** » October 7th, 2009, 5:12 pm

Just found out what Spooning means and I kinda wish I hadn't

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » October 7th, 2009, 5:27 pm

yes brett i did find the other articles linked to the page, i havent had a chance to read them yet but i have bookmarked it all.
on the principals of penjing i havent had luck finding to much.
i will still be hunting them down as i beleive some of my trees lean more to shumi (i think its shumi) penjing (which is single tree penjing) than bonsai, and i think this leans more to my own style as i am more free form than strict design. i like to think so anyways. dont get me wrong i have some trees that i like to keep in a well defined styled shape, but i find penjing very interesting aswell

Pup · Post by **Pup** » October 7th, 2009, 5:53 pm

Penjing is a very interesting subject. As far as I know there are roughly 26 different schools of Penjing, from all around China.

Only one on Bonsai.

There should be something about them!!.
There was an article in part's I can't remember how many by a woman named Karen something or other. I am looking for it in Bonsai Today. As I believe it was there, and they published the book she wrote on the subject.

If you look up Stone Lantern Publishing you might find it before me.

Bretts · Post by **Bretts** » October 7th, 2009, 6:14 pm

I was just reading about Penjing in Peter Chan's Masterclass book and he gives a couple of interesting insights. At the turn of the century Chinese and japanese bonsai where very much alike. A picture taken of Japanese bonsai in 1902 at the first exhibition of "dwarfed trees" held in the west shows trees that are almost identical to the penjing Chinese style.
So the Chinese style has stayed the same as the culture stayed isolated and the Japanese did not.

Bretts · Post by **Bretts** » October 7th, 2009, 6:16 pm

I think the aarticle that you are looking for is the one that Jamie already linked Pup?
Maybe I should have a chat to that doctor for you

anttal63 · Post by **anttal63** » October 7th, 2009, 6:26 pm

karen albert is the woman. this tells the story of how bonsai begun in the form of miniture landscapes over 1000 years ago back in china. and then found its way to japan much later via the zen monks.

Pup · Post by **Pup** » October 7th, 2009, 6:43 pm

Bretts wrote:I think the aarticle that you are looking for is the one that Jamie already linked Pup?
Maybe I should have a chat to that doctor for you

What Doctor OH

That one, she told me its oldtimers disease.

If thats the case I will have to have a look

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » October 7th, 2009, 6:46 pm

im pretty sure that is who wrote the article i linked to, there is a few on the subject of that page at the bottom there is a link that takes you to a list of archives i think

and the author of the articles is Karin Albert

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » October 7th, 2009, 6:48 pm

here is a link to principals of aesthetics for penjing

http://www.venuscomm.com/Aestheticprinciples.html

should be a good read, posting this as i just found it and havent read it yet

Pup · Post by **Pup** » October 7th, 2009, 6:50 pm

jamie111 wrote:im pretty sure that is who wrote the article i linked to, there is a few on the subject of that page at the bottom there is a link that takes you to a list of archives i think

Thats the one. The book she quotes of Wu Yee Sun is in my Library. It is a limited edition. Quite nice pictures.

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » October 7th, 2009, 7:05 pm

Pup wrote:
jamie111 wrote:im pretty sure that is who wrote the article i linked to, there is a few on the subject of that page at the bottom there is a link that takes you to a list of archives i think
Thats the one. The book she quotes of Wu Yee Sun is in my Library. It is a limited edition. Quite nice pictures.

i bet they are mate, being a limited edition! the articles are quite in depth yet very interesting.
from what i have been reading, being open minded enough i have noticed a slight trend between bonsai and penjing, although obviously different in ways there are a lot of similarities (yes i know bonsai was derived from penjing).
not so much in rules, guidelines or principals as such but in that much the same, if you understand what i mean.

qouted from the website i linked about penjing aesthetics principals-

Balance and harmony. Despite the complex pattern of interwoven contrasts, a Chinese masterpiece always conveys a sense of profound harmony. Opposing forces create variation and a strong dynamic quality, and the artist's ultimate challenge consists in the task of balancing these various forces against each other to attain an equilibrium.

this is a guideline as such used in penjing, now in bonsai we seek the same dont we? although written differently with bonsai as for example the 1/3 rule then opposing branches being stepped up, then to the back etc.

this is a principal of bonsai that is there to try and help create balance and harmony, right?

as you go through the principals of aesthetics even though there isnt many as it is more free form, they are still a lot of things in common with bonsai, just worded differently. we try and create movement, voids and empty negative space in a less is more approach etc.

these are just things that have come to mind that i think will help along with our discussion now that it has moved a bit from principals of bonsai as such to the relations between the two different styles.

regards jamie

Bretts · Post by **Bretts** » October 7th, 2009, 7:19 pm

I get the idea Japanese style aims for the left right back with harmony and balance. Where as Penjing looks for mood with harmony and balance. Starting different but ultimately aiming for the same.

I would also say that Japanese is more about controlling nature and penjing is about finding beauty in the chaos of nature.
I think I enjoy controlling nature more but I do like the refreshing penjing to a degree.

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » October 7th, 2009, 7:57 pm

i agree with ya there brett, but when you look at penjing it is more than just finding beuaty in the chaos, developing that tree/s or landscape to that degree and having it all work in conjunction with each other seems to relate a lot to me, yes different yet after a very similar if not the same result in sorts.
i know its a bit contradictory, but i feel that the japanese style and chinese style are very similar in ways yet worded differently in the way we understand them.
understanding the principals of bonsai can be related to the principals of penjing insignifgantly. although penjing the principals are minimal at most, they still relate in differently worded ways to bonsai. knowing that the two have been derived from two different societies, we still have to understand where it all came from, penjing, bonsai, calligraphy, all the art forms as such derived from the very basis to understanding it all.

now i dont know if this is making sense to you guys but it does to me

regards jamie

Pup · Post by **Pup** » October 7th, 2009, 9:05 pm

Trying to understand the Wabi Sabi of the oriental world is what makes it hard for the westerner. That being said the biggest problem with understanding Penjing is understanding which school the practitioner, is trying to convey.
The Lingnan School teaches that all tree's are shaped by clip and grow. I have met a Chinese man who studied in that school. Or so he told me, he even showed me some tree's he had to leave in China when he left!!!.
His comment was tree's should only be trained in this way or they are not natural.
He said that he has studied the other way's but Lingnan was the Superior. His words not mine. So if you have differing school's you have differing Guidelines.
I am not sure of which school Wu Yee Sun studied at.
I do know there are some wonderful tree's in his book. Also some nice Bonsai.

Pup

AusBonsai

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