shari and live veins

[Jamie]

hey people,

here is a question for you all with the experience of sharis and live veins, and how to find them on younger trees that dont show prominent veins?
i am asking as i want to introduce the shari technique into the juniper in my avatar and i have looked quite close but cannot pick out how and where to slice?
i would like to develop some plate like dead wood that was shown to us in jows techniques from japan thread. you can see that from this link if you havent already.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1307&hilit=grow+tr ... e+japanese

i think this would help my tree quite alot by expanding the trunk and giving it more character than the standard trained squamata's you get in nurseries and see all the time.

so if someone can help me determine where the veins are so i dont go and kill the branching of, obviously i will be starting with a small shari to begin with then develop out over time to create the plate like deadwood

thanks in advance

regards jamie

[Jamie]

ok, after having a bit of a chat to some i have had a few hints, hopefully will get some more, im not gonna do much untill i get the idea. as with younger trees you cant see the veins, this can be a bit of an issue obviously if you want a shari as these veins feed the branches, each branch has a vein which connects to a root.
to find this vein go directly under each branch and follow the grain of the trunk, if it has twists most likely the vein will twist too. all the way to a corresponding root, now this may be a hard thing to work out, but time and patience i am sure i will get there.

my intentions is to try and avoid these as much as possible. especially on the major branching.
my plan will be to avoid these live veins as much as possible, i wont be as concerned if i hit a minor branch but i dont want to lose a major one. junipers have a tendancy to be able to redirect sap flow, so this is a good thing
i wont be going for major shari work straight up. it isnt going to be a wide shari at all to start with. maybe 1-2mm at the most. and on 2 maybe 3 points. this will create the effect as show in jows posts on japanese nurseries and how to do it. as this is only a minor cut into the trunk it should allow the sap to redirect without an issue and no branch loss, heres hoping anyways.
as the trunk will grow and add more heart wood on the live veins, these veins will become stronger and more prominent. after approximately a year or so, another couple of mm's will be taken off the live veins, this will help with "streching" out the dead wood plates, from what i understand of jows posts.
adding thickness and more interest to the trunk aswell. as time goes on this process will be repeated over the years to give that lovely deadwood, platelike effect. this is something i havent tried on a tree like this as of yet, i did do something similar on a cheap false cypress at one stage that i left at my mother inlaws, which in the end died as she didnt look after it, but in the time of a year, thin cuts on the trunk had expanded out creating natural shari and showing the live veins.
this was stumbled upon by mistake as i was trying to find out ways to "artificially" thicken the trunk quicker and this is one technique i read about. but was skeptical on, i have seen it work though even without realising it and untill now after seeing jows thread how effective it is when done right instead of bumbling around as a beginner not know nothing and having no patience

so if any one else has input to say please feel free to say it, the more info we have, the more we will learn and in the end bee better off for it

so i look forward to reading others opinions


regards jamie

[Pup]

Jamie my first response, would be why on such a young tree?. As you have stated your self it is hard to find them.
I think unless you are going to make this tree into a Shohin it is better the way it is.
My advice would be to go and buy a Juniper that has a thicker trunk. Like have been shown here. Or get hold of some trees you are not too fussed about.

Going back to the early 90's when it was all the rage, a lot of good stock was ruined by this frenzy of carving. Including some of my own.
Knowing what I know now I certainly would have chosen stock differently. Again JMHO Pup

[stymie]

I said something tentatively about creating 'live veins' in the neighbouring thread about Privet. This is still done by the impatient grower but to re-inforce Pup's words; The live veins on mature trees are easily identified and the bark which doesn't cover live cambium easily prises off. Mechanically producing dead areas is certain to slow down development rather than increasing girth like small injuries do.

[Jamie]

maybe i didnt explain myself right???

i think we have all seen Jows thread on twisted junipers and starting shari early? yes? i will continue on the presumption you have.
my idea for this is not to just rip into the tree and carve and chisel away. it is a similar idea to the twisting of junipers and developing small shari on them which in turn creates live veins on the dead wood. the intial shari would be of no more than 2mm wide. just a slit in a specific spot to add to the trees appeal, as the tree grows the shari will "open" up a bit with the fact more heart wood will have been "deposited". as this continues over the course of a couple of years i would take another slit, approx 2 mm off the live vein. thus repeating the process, as of how it has been explained in Jows thread.

now my question to this was the fact i dont want to lose any branching, will this happen with a small slit in the bark? or will the sap flow redirect itself around the cut?

as there will be cuts on at least two places to allow for the end result of flatter dead wood instead of having a round trunk. this is my aim. i love the tree as it is right now but i also so a much better finished style to this aswell, to me it is a tree that is your typical twisted trunk juniper. i think the movement is quite good on it, but i want to create more depth for it, which i think the techniques described and demonstrated by jows thread would make this accomplishable. as pup knows the apex of the juniper in my avatar will be going via airlayer. once this is done it will give me a better idea of where i want to go.

pup, i hope you havent take what i am saying the wrong way, this is why i have posted the question, for advice and opinions. as to turn this into a shohin tree, unless i can get it to back bud profusely on the lower trunk i may have some issues

my idea doesnt involve carving. it is as i have hopefully explained better this time above.

stymie, this isnt about me being impatient, this is about me striving to make some thing decent better,

thanks for the input guys, hope to get some replies back from you to, i think this could turn into quite an interesting topic.

[anttal63]

how long will young dead wood last??? 1 year, 10 yr, 100 yr. what happens if and when the deadwood perishes??? hollow??? do you bog it up??? na that looks crap! ummmmmmmmmmm its a mystery.
dont tell anybody i said this but pup and stymie are right.

but if you want to go ahead any way. young stock is yet to establish its sap routes in concrete. they are very adaptable as long as you go easy. a series of small diconnected sharis that eventually join up to make a larger shari is the way to go safely. when you jin, a little shari around it too, is nice. design how you want your dead vein to travel and set it up in this manner. remember a little every year.

[Pup]

Jamie I did read Jow's post what stuck with me was they start with a struck cutting. While it is very young and pliable. Twisting and bending then when the tree is thick enough they start with the jin and shari. The tree you have is about 5--7 year old.
In Japan they take 15 years to reach that size there growing season is a lot less than ours.
Now I am quoting what our Sensei, Hirotoshi Siatoh
When he saw stock that size he said thatit was 15 years. We said 5 so I am quoting him.
Jow has said that they start as soon as it has its own roots more or less. That is what we are saying. A young tree will heal it self a lot quicker than and old tree. Conifers find new sap routs very easily. If you wish to do it just remember, while it is repairing that scar it is not putting on girth anywhere else.
Pup

[stymie]

...Those narrow scars will heal over in one season, then the shari is non-existant.

[bodhidharma]

Hmm.. interesting subject. I have made the mistake of trying to achieve something to early and finding out that the tree did not suit what i was trying to achieve as it got older. You cant undo it then. I think the tree should be established first (at least ten years) and then make a decision as to its carving future. Or you can experiment on collected stuff. I, personally do not like some of the stuff that is overworked and not looking natural anymore coming out of japan. Some of them look way to manufactured.

[Jamie]

i think i am starting to get the picture now, as it is a more advancd tree than a seedlin this sort of idea will not become the image that i am percieving. i must thank you guys as this was the info that i was looking for.
i was assuming that wether it was a seedling or something a little older the tree would still respond the same and the round trunk would eventually expand to something more of the plated look.

[Pup]

We are one thing if not pure. Persistent Brett will attest to that. When some one wants to do something we older growers, are aware of does not work. I for one will keep at you until we have shown ( not always ) that.
Then we can sit back and say we have helped and taught something. That then makes me very happy.
Which is what I want to be. Thank you Jamie for the thanks. Pup

[Jamie]

its not a problem mate, how can i argue with experience of someone that has been there and done that, or seen it done and know it doesnt work out for what we wont. and when i say argue its not meant as in argue i am still very very young to the bonsai culture and have an itch that needs scratching and that is learning. the more i learn the better i will become and others can learn from the process too.
you are of great help and guidance to me pup, and a lot of others. whether they realise it or not, and whether they appreciate it or not is another thing to. for me i appreciate everything i can learn and from what i have learnt from you and others with more experience i am forever greatful. a thank you is the least i can do to show my appreciation

regards jamie