Autumn pine refinement

[shibui]

Thought I would have plenty of time to do autumn work on the pines.
Turns out people still expect me to work. Is gardening an essential service?
Then everyone who is stuck at home has decided they need to buy some trees for bonsai

Still managed some me time with the trees.

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[treeman]

I rather like the first one Neil. The trunk is looking aged and rugged. Maybe worth reducing the thickness of the second branch? (yes there are ways ) Then again, it might be worth doing away with the first branch and bringing the apex towards the left?
It's funny how you get no replies when you post a tree with a future but a million replies and endless discussion when someone posts a stick.

[TimS]

Really like the tall after actually. It puts me in mind of the line of massive old radiatas that were at the end of my street until the level crossing removal works arrived and needed access to the rail line and chopped them down granted this is far more stylised but it reminded me of how nice the street used to be.

Treeman nailed it too; it’s an odd occurrence indeed that seedlings garner more attention than actual bonsai.

[shibui]

Thanks for the feedback guys.
I guess there are fewer who feel confident to offer suggestions on older trees but everybody has an opinion on immature stock.

I'm more aware of the thick branches in the photos than in person. Is that just because I am so used to seeing (or not seeing) what's there and just accept it or do photos emphasise some things?
I have looked at the red pine a few times and wondered about changes. Remove lower branch, remove the top section and just work with the 2nd branch and some jins, etc. There are lots of possibilities but it is very hard to cut off a really well ramified branch that has taken 20 years or more to develop Much easier to procrastinate and put up with what's there

The tall black pine looks a bit moth eaten straight after the renovation. Hoping it will look much better after spring budding.

Here's another black pine.
It is quite old. I bought a couple of seedlings way back. Probably at a BSV sale or workshop and possibly 30 years ago. It is possibly a sibling of the previous JBP
They grew quite quickly but I didn't know any maintenance techniques for pine so they just kept growing and developed long, bare branches. Before I was aware of what was happening it was too late.
About 10 years of bending long branches to compress the length, aggressive growing and hard pruning to try to stimulate back buds, attempts at grafting and inarching and there was something to work with again. a few more years to grow the new branching and ramification and it was ready for a restyle.
A couple more years and it is now ready for another critical look at the structure and some possible improvements.

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No scale but trunk is around 6cm diam above the root flare.

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The current apex leans a long way forward. Too far? I've already leaned the trunk back as far back as I'm comfortable. There are thicker roots at the rear but are already well down in the pot. possible touching the bottom of the pot so any more back tilt will push the roots at the front even further up.

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I really like the wild, untamed look of this right branch. It rises from the trunk (bad form for a pine??) then drops in several parts to give balancing foliage where it is needed.

I can see a couple of possibilities to reduce the tree and get rid of the current apex. All require taking off a lot of old tree

I have made an attempt to move the current apex backward and sideward a little in order for it to fit a bit better into the design. A steel bar provides the anchor to pull against. I should be able to move it further after the cells relax a little after this first pull but hastening slowly as that is old wood and over 3cm thick.

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One alternative is to replace the current apex with the shorter vertical part of a rear branch. This would allow the trunk to be leaned forward and maybe even out the nebari again? I've wired that back branch upward in case I decide on to follow that course at some stage.

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Thoughts anybody?

[jessepap]

Please keep posting these amazing pines.

Stunning.

[MJL]

It's funny how you get no replies when you post a tree with a future but a million replies and endless discussion when someone posts a stick.

Speaking for myself, I don't have the confidence and knowledge to discuss people's mature trees, especially experienced growers. I generally just like them and explain why, or if I don't... I stay silent ..... and now the hypocrite bit..... unless I have an idea that I need to itch and usually it's a tad left field.

Like your older tree here Neil. For me the side view is by far the most interesting - for clarity - image 7229. I can picture a story where the elements are hitting the tree from the right. There's slightly strange but somehow natural negative space and there's also a more interesting nebari from that angle. Albeit the tree is leaning left, it almost looks like the tree is nodding towards me a little. Some branches may come at the viewer at tad but I reckon it a long way ahead of the current front. Yep, that side view as the from in a rectangle pot with the tree positioned to the right.....

And... that's probably why I don't comment on older trees.

[Ryceman3]

Hi shibui,
One way of relieving yourself of the conundrum with the apex is to ... well ... do this

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It might be a bit extreme given the age and history you have with the tree. It also means taking off some other interesting branches. Taking this route results in something quite conventional from a bonsai point of view. But, it also means you could probably re-orient the base to re-discover/enhance the nebari, and the taper you get would make a pretty powerful looking semi cascade which would have great impact. Keeping the jin or not... not sure.

Just food for thought really (and since you asked). It’s easy to cut the crap out of trees in pictures.


EDIT: just saw that pretty much the same idea was put out there for this tree on a different forum. Don’t wanna steal thunder or whatever so sorry for the double up with my post here.

[treeman]

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Thoughts anybody?

I know that 2D pics don't really give you a true reflection of the tree but I love the side view..