Please help ID these two needle pine cones

[longd_au]

Hi

I am not sure if these are red or black pine cones. Only thing I can confirm is that the needles comes in pairs.
Can anyone tell just from looking at the cones?
I know black pines has thicker and straighter needles. From what I can tell, the tree where these cones came from had fairly straight needles.

pinecone.jpg

Hope someone can help.

Regards,
Dennis

[shibui]

Scale is difficult to establish in a photo even though it is obvious to someone who sees them. I'm not sure if the plate is 20cm or 30 cm and size is important.

Bark and habit of the trees are other specific characteristics that can differentiate pinus species.

Pinus halapensis also has 2 needles and similar cones.

[longd_au]

Thanks Neil ..
I took some photos of the needles today hoping they help identify the cones. I have never seen a full size black pine tree. The needles resemble the ones I have in pots but they appear shorter and thinner. However, this could just be because I feed my potted ones heavily.

pine1.jpg

pine2.jpg

[Grant Bowie]

I would agree with Pinus halipensis, going by the cones and longer softer foliage. The cones can become almost bright orange on a mature tree. You can see them out near Wagga and even here in canberra.

Grant

[shibui]

Where have you found this tree Dennis?
Another member from South Australia posted similar then finally told us it was growing in RSL grounds
Every RSL has a 'Lone Pine' clone which is P. halapensis.

[Raging Bull]

I concur, they look very much like some cones I collected from a p. halapensis that I collected in Adelaide a couple of years ago.

001e.jpg

They took quite some time to open and release the seeds (almost a year) but I now have about 30 seedlings growing from them.

[longd_au]

Where have you found this tree Dennis?
Another member from South Australia posted similar then finally told us it was growing in RSL grounds
Every RSL has a 'Lone Pine' clone which is P. halapensis.

Hi Neil

They were picked up in Point cook, along a bike track my friend took me to. They seem to line the entire beach front. Lots and lots of them. Some animal has been chewing them off the tree and making a mess of the cones trying to get to the seeds (I assume). If I am not wrong, we were near the Point Cook Marine Sanctuary. He told me Parks Victoria officers told him you can't pick up the cones. So I assume we were in a reserve.

Are these pines any good for bonsai?

[shibui]

This is sounding more and more like Pinus halapensis.
They grow well in drier, sandy soils so it makes some sense to have planted them along the beach front.

I do not know how to or if it is possible to tell the difference between pine cones. You could try searching the keys to pinus species and trying to work though the points of difference but the technical terms usually beat me before I get very far.

[longd_au]

Thanks Neil.
Does anyone know if Aleppo pine are any good for bonsai?
From the photos on google, none look very refined. Maybe they are just not a common species to bonsai and so, does not have many photos.

I also wonder if they are double or single flush.

[Raging Bull]

Aleppo pines do have the advantage of having shorter internodes and growing bushier than some other pines, even when they are in an open area and don't have to compete for sunlight. Here's a pic of the tree I collected my cones from and one of a mature tree in the open.

Adelaide April 2018 112e.jpg

As they are not an Australian native tree, even regarded as a weed in some areas, I don't see why you should not collect some pine cones from them. The cockatoos are the culprits when it comes to tearing open the cones to get at the seeds.
Mine are only seedlings at the moment, so I'm experimenting with them myself.

Adelaide April 2018 118e.jpg

Cheers, Frank.

[greg27]

From what I've been told Aleppo pine isn't the best for bonsai as the needles are longer and scragglier than other species. There were a couple at the recent SA show where they were kept trimmed to produce juvenile foliage to overcome this.

[shibui]

I found them frustrating and eventually gave up on them but that was many years ago when I had no idea how to manage pine growth. Mine got really long and leggy with tufts of leaves at the tips and, like most pines, they would not bud on bare wood when pruned.
They also tend to revert to juvenile growth when pruned so I'm not surprised those trees in SA are maintained as juvenile foliage. Not only is it shorter and neater but it is what the trees want to do when pruned.
Halapensis is easy to grow and maintain as they are even more drought hardy than the Japanese pines we tend to use more.
My experience does not extend to whether they are single or dual flush species.

It is illegal to take anything from a park but I reckon you could get away with taking a few pine cones. Just remind the rangers it is a potential weed.
The cockatoos are very fond of pine seed and have learned to tear the cones open to get at the seed. The sulphur crested cockies eat pine cones and up here the less common Yellow tailed blacks come in to take the stone pine seeds as well as any other pine.

[longd_au]

Thanks for all your replies. I now know a little more about these pines.
The mess of cones I saw are no longer a mystery. For a minute, I thought they were possums but the marks resembled someone trying to rip the cones open with a pair of pliers. Now I know those pliers are beaks.

I saw a post that said Ryan Neil suggest to treat them like single flush pines. Then another saying to treat them like JBP.

Looks like I got a bunch of seeds to experiment with.

Thanks again for all your replies.