THE JWP PROJECT

[Ryceman3]

What can I say ... I'm a sucker for a project and growing stuff from seed rates highly on my things to get motivated about. I plan to continue with propagating JBP and a few other bits and pieces too, but when the prospect of creating some seed-grown Japanese White Pine came onto the radar I was keen to diversify.
I really like JWP as bonsai, and was completely in awe of some of the older, mature versions I saw in Japan a number of years ago that nudged my motivation to try growing them. The problem I have though when I look to get a JWP to try here is grafting. I have trouble getting passed the graft union, I can't overlook the taper issues that are common at these sites or the obvious scars/bulges/weirdness that I see. I am sure there are many well grafted trees but I haven't come across any being sold as pre-bonsai, so I keep walking by.
Clearly the way to avoid these issues is to get a non-grafted JWP ... on its own roots ... easier said than done! I've only ever seen a couple available that I think would be suited to bonsai and those were going for a price I couldn't justify. It has been broadly stated that JWP don't perform well when they aren't grafted, the root system is weak(er) compared to say JBP and they are MUCH slower to develop. They don't seem to remain healthy for long is the anecdotal summary. All of that might be true, but with seed available (a shout out to TimS... ) and a chance to try and create some ungrafted JWP with the goal of bonsai from the very beginning, I feel like it's ripe for me to put all that to the test myself. The only sure-fire way of never getting anywhere is never starting the journey, so time to get the seed trays out and get busy this winter! I'll be logging my JWP from seed journey in this thread and with any luck in 10 years or so it will contain a few pics of some nice little JWP bonsai. In the meantime, here's a pic of the seed that I have right now ...

JWP Seed IG_01.jpg

I have a few to play with so will be trying a couple of different germination techniques. How successful I am at getting seedlings I guess will then determine how experimental I get with growing strategies etc.
If you've got an inkling to have a go at JWP from scratch and a few spare bucks maybe reach out to TimS on this thread
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... 73#p303973
and play along with me ... it's always fun waiting to see what happens.

[TimS]

Looking forward to seeing what you can achieve with the white pines mate! Hopefully you'll get a bit of a different challenge and we'll all get to learn from your excellent pine knowledge and experience along the way

[PeachSlices]

I will join in from NSW, Will do some testing aswell.

Simon

[BirchMan]

If anyone can do it you can!

[Raniformis]

What variety are these seeds? I've got several hundred of the glauca variety and popped half a dozen straight from the cone with no problems. The Googles say they may need stratification once they harden off but we all know how wrong the interwebs can be.

From a commercial perspective it makes sense to use grafted material, hard to maintain integrity selling something in Qld for example when you know they won't do well in a warmer environment.

[Ryceman3]

What variety are these seeds?

Not 100% on that, I'm gonna say something pretty stock standard. Whenever you grow from seed though you will get plenty of variation in the seedlings as it is not cloning the parent like cuttings, layering etc... but I don't think the tree that provided the cones was a specific cultivar.

From a commercial perspective it makes sense to use grafted material, hard to maintain integrity selling something in Qld for example when you know they won't do well in a warmer environment.

Of course! If it didn't make commercial sense it wouldn't be common practice for JWP nursery stock to be grafted because it's adding man hours/risk/extra care and resources etc. I guess the nurseries aren't thinking bonsai as a potential end game for the tree. You never know, I might end up finding out exactly why they do it!!

[TimS]

What variety are these seeds?.

I collected them all from several Glauca white pines, but as Ryan says they will (likely) not show the same characteristics.

Years ago i purchased an un-grafted JWP, but sold it to another member. I didn't particularly struggle with it, just at the time i wasn't into pines enough to appreciate what i actually had.

There is a lot of comments about how they don't survive well on their roots, but the Japanese seem to be able to do it so why shouldn't we?

[Patmet]

What variety are these seeds?.

I collected them all from several Glauca white pines, but as Ryan says they will (likely) not show the same characteristics.

Years ago i purchased an un-grafted JWP, but sold it to another member. I didn't particularly struggle with it, just at the time i wasn't into pines enough to appreciate what i actually had.

There is a lot of comments about how they don't survive well on their roots, but the Japanese seem to be able to do it so why shouldn't we?

I'm guessing it just comes down to what your local climate is. I've personally never seen a white pine in Western Australia, grafted or un-grafted.

I tried germinating seeds a couple of years ago to no avail. I'm not confident they would grow well here, but it would still be interesting to find out myself. Getting decent seed in this state is the hard part..

[Ryceman3]

So, enough fluffing around. Time to get started.
I'm going with at least two strategies with propagating these seeds, this is the first one.
I'll be soaking them for at least 24 hours in warm water to which I have added a couple of mls of Hydrogen Peroxide.
Why? To help mitigate any fungal spores which might be on the seed. With this strategy I plan to have them in the fridge for a couple of months, so to keep the seeds as healthy as possible (and to keep my wife from going nuts) I will be seeking to lower the chances of any fungal action as they stratify over that period.

The cup of coffee adds nothing other than to signify it was morning tea time...

JWP-Seed_01 0524.jpg

[BirchMan]

What variety are these seeds?.

I collected them all from several Glauca white pines, but as Ryan says they will (likely) not show the same characteristics.

Years ago i purchased an un-grafted JWP, but sold it to another member. I didn't particularly struggle with it, just at the time i wasn't into pines enough to appreciate what i actually had.

There is a lot of comments about how they don't survive well on their roots, but the Japanese seem to be able to do it so why shouldn't we?

I'm guessing it just comes down to what your local climate is. I've personally never seen a white pine in Western Australia, grafted or un-grafted.

I tried germinating seeds a couple of years ago to no avail. I'm not confident they would grow well here, but it would still be interesting to find out myself. Getting decent seed in this state is the hard part..

The Seed Vine ebay store used to send to me no worries (from the eastern states). Of their supply I've probably only got 1 Thunderhead JBP left. But I didn't jump on TimS's JWP supply because I had my doubts in our climate.
Having said that I've seen one or two small ones owned by a Bonsai Workshop member.

[Matt_W_NZ]

With this strategy I plan to have them in the fridge for a couple of months

Why the long stratification Ryan?

I have some seeds from Tim too. I followed your JBP methodology to great success last year so am planning on following in your footsteps again, please and thank you

[shibui]

Several have already mentioned poor germination. That's my experience also but I did get a few seeds to germinate some years ago.
Numbers were relatively small so my results may not be completely representative but I'll give you what I found.
I used 2 strategies:
Sow seed outside to stratify naturally through our winter (night temps usually around -2C, occasionally -5C but always above freezing each day)
Gently crack the hard shells and sow as above.
Seed sowed without pre treatment yielded 0 seedlings from around 20 seeds.
Cracked seed yielded 3 seedlings from 10 seeds.

For those who have not had JWP, the seeds have a much thicker and harder shell than most of the temperate pine species. Not quite as hard as Stone pine but not too far away. My guess is that the harder shell protects the seed but also inhibits germination in which case getting moisture through that seed shell will be the key to germination - hence the trial with cracking the shells on some.
JWP also appears to be a mountain species, growing in areas that experience colder winters than Black pine. The hard seed shell may have developed to protect the seed from cold or from seed eaters but may also serve to inhibit germination until the cold of winter has passed.

Most JWP germination instructions include long cold stratification periods. My guess is that helps soften the seed coat and allow moisture to penetrate though to the seed inside. Note that my cold stratification was outdoors so temps would not have been as cold as 3 months fridge stratification.

Some instructions also include a warm stratification period. That's something I have not previously tried but makes some sense to me given we are trying to soften a hard shell.
I'm hoping someone will have enough seeds to trial both extended cold stratification and the warm and cold stratification methods side by side and let us know the results.

Good luck to all of you who are making the effort.

[shibui]

From a commercial perspective it makes sense to use grafted material, hard to maintain integrity selling something in Qld for example when you know they won't do well in a warmer environment.

One reason for grafting is to add the resilience of a different root stock to help the scion cope but there are other reasons for grafting as a propagation method. Here's a few I know of:

• It's what the growers know. Many of our plants can grow perfectly well on their own roots and also strike well as cuttings but the commercial growers know grafting and trust it. Maybe they don't want to set up for growing cuttings as well.

• The variety does not root well as cuttings - this is the case with most pines. Seed or grafting become the only reliable methods for commercial propagation. When seed is in short supply or unavailable, (as it is in Australia because of a ban on import of pine seed) grafting becomes the only option.

I'm not confident they would grow well here, but it would still be interesting to find out myself.

I was also dubious about how well white pines would do in Australia. I had disappointing results with a single cutting I managed to strike many years ago but when I got hold of some seed I tried again. The resulting 3 trees have grown well here for the past 15 years. I do acknowledge that it is a bit cooler here than WA. The point is my trees are doing well despite persistent talk that they don't grow well anywhere in Aus. Bonsai North-West show had an old JWP on display this year so they will grow in Melbourne. Always worth a try.

Getting decent seed in this state is the hard part.

Don't go thinking you Sandgropers are special. Getting pine seed anywhere in Australia is almost impossible since the quarantine ban on import of all pine material. Seed of any pine species is very difficult to get here now. Many suppliers still list them but always as 'out of stock'. Identifying parks and gardens trees seems to be our best bet now but I'm pretty sure most of the JWP in Australia are growing in Tassie parks and arboretums which still won't help you.
I just checked the 'Seed Vine' site mentioned by Birchman. They don't even list JWP now and, as usual, JBP and JRP are 'out of stock'

[Ryceman3]

Here's a few shots for comparison of a JWP seed and a JBP seed next to a $2 coin. JWP in the middle, JBP on the right... coin on the left.

JWP-seed_01.jpg

As is visually obvious, the JWP seed is bigger and has a much thicker "shell", and as mentioned would seemingly need to be penetrated by moisture to get germination underway. Soaking the seeds is a good way to get that process started in my experience. As of this morning only around 6 seeds have sunk from the batch yesterday, which to me indicated the water has penetrated. I'm not too surprised given how thick that shell is so I'll leave them to continue soaking longer. I did say "at least" 24 hours! Of those that sunk I can actually see a visual crack on some (see below) so I don't think manually creating this is necessary... but do what works for you.

JWP-seed_02.jpg

.....
I plan to divide this batch in half in terms of stratification. One half will go in the fridge until the end of July... mid-August(ish), the other half will be stratified at room temperature for a month or so and then into the fridge for another couple of months. Don't know if this satisfies the "warm stratification" component, but it's my gut feel on what timeline to follow. I also have a batch waiting which I will be using the "JBP method" from my other thread as a reference, just to experiment.

Why the long stratification Ryan?

I have some seeds from Tim too. I followed your JBP methodology to great success last year so am planning on following in your footsteps again, please and thank you

As shibui mentioned, JBP and JWP are not the same. JBP is a coastal tree, JRP are from the foothills in Japan ... slightly higher altitudes, and JWP are considered alpine (high altitude) trees. Naturally they would experience far colder temperatures for longer during winter and I guess the extra fridge stratification is a simulation of that. Just adapting the techniques to accommodate the seed species.

It's also probably worth noting at this stage that I think growing JWP from seed is going to be a looonnnggg game. No waiting just 6 years to look at 3 inch trunks on shohin trees like with JBP, these are a completely different species ... I just hope to grow something respectable that will probably need to be passed on to another bonsai junkie before it reaches close to its full potential.

[Matt_W_NZ]

Thanks once again for the excellent information and advice Neil and Ryan!