THE JWP PROJECT

[Raniformis]

Yeah, they certainly have a thick and hard shell that doesn't wear down at all. I was thinking about attacking them with pliers last night. Using a bit of common sense, the freezer might crack them via expansion.

Botanical Gardens are a good source of seed

Edit: I germinated some stone pine last week, just cracked the shell and removed the embryo completely, a few days later they were shooting a radicle. You could probably do the same with JWP.

[Raniformis]

Okay... It's not so much that the shell is hard (they crack at the seam with little pressure). I reckon it's more that they're lined with an impermeable barrier and don't recieve water to trigger germination. Apologies for littering your thread, hopefully this helps.

20240824_102550.jpg

As stated, 10 weeks cold stratification in damp paper towel.

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Removed from the shell, pretty confident some of these will be pushing a radicle some time next week.

20240824_110729.jpg

A solid 3 months sitting in a moist environment and zero water penetrated through to the embryo.

[Ryceman3]

OK, Some food for thought. It's good to get some theories and discussions happening so no worries with chiming in Raniformis.

From this limited experience I'm guessing the thick shell may have some impact on germination and may be one of the germination inhibitors that protects the seed through cold winters.
I believe that JWP comes from cold mountain areas so probably has one or more germination inhibitors. Stratification is likely to be important for germination.

I buy that theory too shibui and I think it might have something to do with why I found it took longer for JWP seeds to sink over the JBP.

In relation to the cracked casing/moisture penetration etc I did a bit of investigating this afternoon also.
I had a couple of JWP seed still left unsoaked/unstratified sitting in a drawer so I pulled them out and cracked a couple open. I saw nothing like the pics posted above ... they were generally like this :

JWP Seed_01.jpg

Obviously no water in there! So, I went out to my sown seeds and did a quick bit of digging. I uncovered 4 seeds from Batch A, gave them a gentle squeeze with the jin pliers and they all looked like this :

JWP Seed_02.jpg

The actual size of the soaked/stratified seeds was visibly bigger than the "raw" ones ... maybe 10% or so at a guess.
I would say that internally the case seemed to be darker in colour too and looked damp so I feel like the water had penetrated. It took very little effort at all to crack them so maybe they were already split?
In any case, I split open completely 2 (as in the photo) and then put back the bare embryo to do hopefully something. The other two I cracked and prized apart the case enough to see the embryo but then left it in the casing and returned it to the tray.
I didn't have time to keep playing around with the other batches but I might do a bit more digging in the coming days.
Will be interesting to see what comes of these cracked/extracted embryo seeds ... time will tell!

[shibui]

The seed in that first shot looks shrivelled. I would assume that one is not viable for some reason. A healthy seed should be plump and round.
Hard to tell with the second one whether it is another shrunken seed that has absorbed water and swelled up a bit or whether it is actually viable.

Interesting to note that not all pine seed is viable. Last Autumn I harvested 20 cones of 2 red pines I planted in the paddock a few years ago. From those cones I got a couple of hundred seeds that looked OK but when I checked they were all empty shells. Not one seed had a viable embryo inside the shell. That's the second year in a row of dud seeds from those 2 trees.
Not sure why but it indicates that pines will go to all the trouble of growing and maturing a cone with seed shells even when there's no viable embryos. I guess it is also possible that white pines have the same problem. I'd be breaking open some seed cases and checking that the actual seeds inside actually look Ok before going to all the trouble of trying to germinate.

[Ryceman3]

I guess it is also possible that white pines have the same problem. I'd be breaking open some seed cases and checking that the actual seeds inside actually look Ok before going to all the trouble of trying to germinate.

No doubt it's possible but the breaking open of seeds before going to the trouble of germinating is a moot point ... that's all been done. In any case, even if I had broken a few open and found the above, I know for a fact I would have gone through the same process to give them every chance of germinating. The only real way of guaranteeing a seed won't grow is by denying it any chance to do so. It's the same as discarding floating seed or seed from pot-grown pine cones ... I wouldn't do it and have had success with both. That's not to say there will be success here though, growing from seed is basically a crap shoot, you win some and you lose some. Unless you have X-ray vision and are a clairvoyant it's impossible to know what you'll get from it just by looking at it.
Having said all that I will try and find some time to see if I can exhume and dissect a couple of seeds from the other batches I have sown just for a bit of fun ... but the only real way to know what if any success comes from these seeds will be time. I'm still crossing fingers...

[Raniformis]

Both those seeds look shot unfortunately (although 2nd pic may just be the colour of the coating). Might be worth cutting one in half, they should be crisp and white inside.

For what it's worth, the seeds in my pic sank instantly, there were a few good seeds in the mix that sank within 24hrs but the floaters were dead. I opened over 200 to inspect the insides, all at various stages of decay, from shrivelled to dust.

[LeeBee73]

It does appear a little bleak but it's nice to see you are keeping optimistic.
You never know ... even to get a few would be worth the effort.
Good luck! I'll keep my fingers crossed too.

[Ryceman3]

OK, a small update after some further digging and splitting today.
Here's what I found, Batch A first : Same seed in both pics.

JWP Seeds 0824_025.jpg

JWP Seeds 0824_026.jpg

............
Then Batch B : Three different seeds

JWP Seeds 0824_021.jpg

JWP Seeds 0824_022.jpg

JWP Seeds 0824_024.jpg

............
Finally, Batch C :

JWP Seeds 0824_023.jpg

............
Apologies for the photo quality. Trying to snap a pic and keep these little seeds from blowing away made it a bit hard to accurately focus with the phone cam, but I think they are able to show what they need to.
My assessment ... I think there is good and bad germination possibilities in this sample so I am definitely happy I went through the process.
For me, the seed in Batch A looks decent and the fact there was a seed in Batch B that I dug up that had split and opened by itself I hope is encouraging. The Batch C seed looks to be a little dire but I only dug one so hopefully there are others that are a bit less shrivelled on the inside.
Interested to hear what others think.
Like I said earlier, growing from seed is "luck of the draw", time will tell I guess but those fingers are still crossed!

[Raniformis]

Spot on... batch A is good, batch B look so so but the one in the soil looks good, batch C looks dead.

Gotta remember to open the pics, makes a big difference.

[Raniformis]

Just getting back with some results on the seeds I extracted earlier in the thread. Four of the six germinated normally while the other two doubled in size and began to rot. My thought there is that the radicle got trapped inside the protective coating. Melb temps so not too fussy, all in all I'd say the shell is the main inhibitor.

Screenshot_20240922-211627_Gallery.jpg

[TimS]

Just getting back with some results on the seeds I extracted earlier in the thread. Four of the six germinated normally while the other two doubled in size and began to rot. My thought there is that the radicle got trapped inside the protective coating. Melb temps so not too fussy, all in all I'd say the shell is the main inhibitor.

Screenshot_20240922-211627_Gallery.jpg

Great update and info thanks all in all I think I won’t bother collecting them again unless people here really want me to

[Ryceman3]

Good to see a bit of action!
Unfortunately, I can't say the same right now ... but there is still time for something to happen.
The JBP in the back are up and about though, so I still have a few seedlings to keep busy with while I wait.

JWP Seeds 0924_01.jpg

[Ryceman3]

Nothing to report unfortunately in relation to these JWP seeds.
I dug 10 or so up a couple of weeks ago and when I cracked them open I found essentially nothing inside most of them, and just a couple with a semi-dehydrated "mass".
Could be a lot of things that contribute to no germination so I'd be interested to hear from others who planted seeds from this batch and whether anyone has had any success!?
Hopefully there are a few seedlings that have popped somewhere! Right now I'll continue to water the dirt over the seeds that I have still in their trays but I think there is a very strong possibility that any further advancement on this thread won't be coming from me.
The joys of propagation!!

[legoman_iac]

So we should replace "don't count your chickens before they hatch" ... with "don't count your JWP before they germinate"?

Hope you get a couple late bloomers!

[Promethius]

I’ve not had any luck. Got excited at one point but it was a weed. I probably don’t have room for a batch of white pine anyway!