Itoigawa Perth

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hey all,

Long time no chat! I hope everyone is doing well. I’ve been putting the feelers out there at my club about Itoigawa in Perth but, am meeting brick walls. It seems to be nonexistent over here in WA, it’s kind of a surprise tbh.

Curious if anyone knows or has any over here? Just a cutting would keep be absolutely amazing. I love that beautiful lighter green foliage. It’s just stunning.

I’m going to give DPIRD a call today and see what the requirements for getting plants over the border into WA are. From what I can see, Juniperus chinensis is allowed. It’s the soil that may be a problem and finding a supplier

Curious if anyone has imported plants into WA and what the process was like? Any help as always would be super appreciated!

[badabing888]

most plants need to be bare rooted and quarantined for a non-trivial length of time and your paying for it too. It basically makes it impossible unless doing something at a commercial level.

This basically rules out most types of live plant material and almost 100% of the time conifers.

try https://www.yaminarareplants.com.au he can import into WA from what his told me but ive not asked about pines / junipers previously

[Mickeyjaytee]

most plants need to be bare rooted and quarantined for a non-trivial length of time and your paying for it too. It basically makes it impossible unless doing something at a commercial level.

This basically rules out most types of live plant material and almost 100% of the time conifers.

try https://www.yaminarareplants.com.au he can import into WA from what his told me but ive not asked about pines / junipers previously

Thanks so much for the info, I really appreciate it. I’ve reached out to them so we’ll see if they stock it or can source it. I spoke with DPIRD and it is a plant you are able to import. There are restrictions such as no soil but, they did say that inorganic soils are allowed so, I would assume if I could get a plant in inorganic material, pay the correct fees, it could be possible

Thanks again for the help. If anyone else has any other info at all, please reach out!

Cheers all!

[NikiC]

Where are you based Mickey?

There are a few folk with very dense juniper but variety is not specifically known.

Some of the junipers ive got ive had suggested are itoigawa by some very reputable people but the reality is who knows. I was just lucky enough to be in the right place right time to buy some from long time artists.

Some people will sell them but its not overly common so usually a decent price especially for established stock.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Where are you based Mickey?

There are a few folk with very dense juniper but variety is not specifically known.

Some of the junipers ive got ive had suggested are itoigawa by some very reputable people but the reality is who knows. I was just lucky enough to be in the right place right time to buy some from long time artists.

Some people will sell them but its not overly common so usually a decent price especially for established stock.

Hey thanks for the reply! I appreciate it greatly. I’m up in Perth, happy to travel though!

Can I ask what the leaf colour is like as opposed to the others? Itoigawa seems to have that brighter, more vibrant green while the Kishu is that darker, greyish-bluish-green.

In all honesty, I’d just be happy with some cuttings or small, just rooted plants. Well, I think I’d be happy with whatever I could get when it comes to Itoigawa! I think established stock would be way out of my budget I’ve been super patient with my kishu and am happy with the process of learning and watching them grow and evolve so I’m not fussed if I have to start from scratch.

Personally, I’ve decided to just focus on Shimpaku. I just absolutely love them. Not having the ‘king of bonsai’ in WA is crazy if it’s true that we don’t have itoigawa here!

I’d be super stoked if they are and you were willing to share! Happy to PM!

Thanks again. Overjoyed at the possibility and really appreciate yourself reaching out Thank you

[shibui]

I have a couple of J. chinensis that I am told are Itiogawa. They both turned quite brown over winter. Not dead, just a reaction to cold weather. They are alongside what we refer to as Shimpaku which are all far more green through Winter so, I'd say there's a definite difference in Winter colour between the 2 varieties.
The Itiogawa appear to have much more open growth habit than Shimpaku but, I'm told, Itiogawa foliage tightens up when they are pruned regularly.

Itiogawa may be slightly greener in Summer but I did not take enough notice to be definitive. I would not use colour as a definitive ID feature as colour changes according to a range of factors - nutrient, temp, sun, etc.

[Mickeyjaytee]

I have a couple of J. chinensis that I am told are Itiogawa. They both turned quite brown over winter. Not dead, just a reaction to cold weather. They are alongside what we refer to as Shimpaku which are all far more green through Winter so, I'd say there's a definite difference in Winter colour between the 2 varieties.
The Itiogawa appear to have much more open growth habit than Shimpaku but, I'm told, Itiogawa foliage tightens up when they are pruned regularly.

Itiogawa may be slightly greener in Summer but I did not take enough notice to be definitive. I would not use colour as a definitive ID feature as colour changes according to a range of factors - nutrient, temp, sun, etc.

Heya Neil,

Thanks for the reply, I always appreciate your input. Interesting about the leaf colour. From what I’ve seen it has that definitive lime-green foliage colour as opposed to the shimpaku. I do agree with you though. There are heaps of factors to take into consideration. In summer I’ve noticed a colour difference between trees that get a bit more sun than the others. I’d be curious to see how your Itoigawa would come up in the Perth sun

The growth habit is the definite noticeable difference. It does seem to grow out much more “leggy” and is able to be trained to be dense like shimpaku. I’ve seen quite a few comments from people saying they prefer the Itoigawa due to the more open foliage. I agree.

Have you noticed a difference in growth rate? I hear Itoigawa grows and thickens faster vs shimpaku. That’d be a boon if so! My shimpaku are still slowly, slowly, slooooowly getting there

Thanks again mate

[shibui]

Not enough time and experience yet to gauge growth rates. Itoigawa may be a little faster than Shimpaku but still not fast. I think it took 3 years to get the first one big enough to take my first cuttings!

[Mickeyjaytee]

Well, as I keep getting told, patience Mickey, patience. The 3+ years would be more than worth it for Itoigawa! The growth habit would be interesting to see develop side by side with a regular Shimpaku. It really is quite unique.

[shibui]

Here are a couple of side by side comparison shots of Itiogawa V Shimpaku.
A little hard to see with the random background but you may be able to pick out some of the differences.

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IMG_9204.JPG

I did note there's currently very little difference in foliage colour. A couple of the Shimpaku are slightly blue but most are more greenish.

IMG_9205.JPG

IMG_9206.JPG

I was surprised to see the Itiogawa has suddenly lost it's winter brown tinge. Just a couple of weeks ago they were markedly brown.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for the pics Neil! You can definitely see that lime-green of the Itoigawa. More subtle than I thought but, it’s noticeable. I wonder with age if it’ll get that vivid green colour or lighten more or stay the same?

The growth is definitely different. You can see that openness of the Itoigawa and that ‘fan-like’ shaping to the foliage. Sort of resembling a Hinoki but, not quite as tight and defined as their foliage pads. The new growth seems not as dead straight as the Shimpaku either. It’s more curved and ‘snakey’ as it reaches for the sun. Do all of the Itoigawa have that feature?

Personally to me the Shimpaku has a sort of refined, almost manicured, tighter feel while the Itoigawa has a more ‘wild’ twisted, open look Regardless it looks fantastic! I can see why it’s favoured in Japan. Geez to work on those would be a dream. Definitely interested to see your future work on them! You’ll have to let us know what you learn!

Thanks for sharing the pics! I’m pretty sure we all appreciate that. Awesome stuff indeed

[Ryceman3]

You can definitely see that lime-green of the Itoigawa. More subtle than I thought but, it’s noticeable. I wonder with age if it’ll get that vivid green colour or lighten more or stay the same?

The colour is more obvious outside of winter in my experience. Doubt you’ll see much of the winter “brown” in WA… I don’t get the big drops in overnight temperatures that create the distinct dormant brown tinges a lot of people elsewhere get in juniper foliage, but there is definitely more obvious differences in “green” during spring/summer/autumn for itoigawa v regular shimpaku. Both are good for bonsai. Itoigawa is great without doubt, but making great bonsai is more than just the species of tree… how you develop it is definitely a factor.

[Mickeyjaytee]

You can definitely see that lime-green of the Itoigawa. More subtle than I thought but, it’s noticeable. I wonder with age if it’ll get that vivid green colour or lighten more or stay the same?

The colour is more obvious outside of winter in my experience. Doubt you’ll see much of the winter “brown” in WA… I don’t get the big drops in overnight temperatures that create the distinct dormant brown tinges a lot of people elsewhere get in juniper foliage, but there is definitely more obvious differences in “green” during spring/summer/autumn for itoigawa v regular shimpaku. Both are good for bonsai. Itoigawa is great without doubt, but making great bonsai is more than just the species of tree… how you develop it is definitely a factor.

Ah awesome. Do you own a few R3? Would love to see the colouring. It’s true, I’ve never had any of my junipers have a snooze over winter. They all retain their green colour and usually send out new growth then and again when spring starts. Little power houses!

I’ve heard that Itoigawa requires a slightly different approach to foliage trimming than shimpaku. Is this true and do you know exactly what the difference is? I’ll have to pour through some videos and find where I saw that specific piece of advise.

Would love tips on development also. I’m trying a few different approaches to see what works best in this climate.

Anyways, thanks for sharing mate, I appreciate it!

[Trimmy]

I found Itoigawa can almost go yellow in the hot part of summer. Almost like a Gold Coast juniper. There might be a difference required in pruning. I noticed they're a lot more likely to put out juvenile foliage than Kishu and Blaauws.

[Mickeyjaytee]

I found Itoigawa can almost go yellow in the hot part of summer. Almost like a Gold Coast juniper. There might be a difference required in pruning. I noticed they're a lot more likely to put out juvenile foliage than Kishu and Blaauws.

Thanks for the reply Trimmy. Almost yellow would be crazy! I see a lot of pictures from Japan where I’m assuming it’s mid summer and the Itoigawa have that bright, eye popping green. That said, they do have a humid climate so that’d definitely come in the play.

I’m still trying to find the video re the difference in pruning. It was possibly a BonsaiQ video. That said, the auto-translate subtitles spew out some really random things

I too have heard that they can send out the juvenile growth much more often than the kishu/shimpaku. I guess more care and proper timing is essential.

Thanks for the reply!