How hard it is to airlay JBP?

kvan64 · Post by **kvan64** » January 17th, 2010, 5:11 pm

This once a sick pine I bought cheap sometime ago now shoots up like hell. Maybe with the help of SuperThrive. There is only one problem with it. There is a swelling right in the middle of the trunk just after the sharp bent and causes the reverse taper. I was thinking of carving it out but worry that this may weaken the tree. Now I just thought of airlaying it and have 2 trees. Just wondering if anyone have done airlaying with JBP with good result before and could give me some tips.
Thanks heaps
DK

Mojo Moyogi · Post by **Mojo Moyogi** » January 17th, 2010, 6:43 pm

DK,
From past experience, it is a fairly hit and miss process to A/L JBP

. I have managed to do a few using a fogging system and a polytunnel that have turned out great, putting out roots inside of a year, but by and large you are looking at 18 months to 3 years wait.

I find it much easier to propagate them from cuttings and have never bothered with growing them from seed.

Cheers
MM

Pup · Post by **Pup** » January 17th, 2010, 6:44 pm

Kvan, can you get hold of Bonsai Today issue number 33, there is an excellent article in there on Air Layering Black Pine, on Page 35 it shows the method used.
Which is the standard ring bark method, I must admit that surprised me. In the same magazine they tell you the best time is spring and that it take 18 months, or as they put it a year and a half.

Also Deborah Koreshoff mentions it in her book.
Although I have never tried it I have seen some results and it is just time. It does take longer than most other species.

Cheers

Pup

shibui · Post by **shibui** » January 17th, 2010, 7:22 pm

I've only tried JBP air layers once. result was 1 successful from 3 layers but that was on a tree in the paddock with little care and attention and the layers dried out a bit sometimes. With a well cared for tree and a bit of attention to the layers you should get good results. I'd say go for it. what have you got to loose?

kvan64 · Post by **kvan64** » January 17th, 2010, 7:29 pm

Pup, I'll try to search on eBay for that issue as I have no other way of getting it. Thanks for the info.
MM and Shibui, it sounds like a bit conplicated and lengthy time to wait for the roots to take. I was wondering if the youger branches would take easier than the older branch. This tree is just over 20 years old. Is it ok to air lay the main trunk?

shibui · Post by **shibui** » January 17th, 2010, 8:05 pm

I'm surprised at the quoted age of the tree. It has not developed much in its 20 years. It must have had a pretty tough life for much of that time. Looks healthy enough now though.
I had the impression that younger wood struck roots more quickly and reliably than older wood but I have just thought about this. The cambuim, just under the bark is where the new roots come from and cambium is constantly renewing itself and forming new wood and bark so any cambium in a tree should always be new regardless of the age of the branch or trunk???? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Back to the tree.

kvan64 wrote: it sounds like a bit conplicated and lengthy time to wait for the roots to take.

It sounds like you expect 'instant' bonsai. I cannot help you with that. Good things do take time. In bonsai a few years is nothing.

I also notice that the branches on your pine are getting long with most of the needles near the ends. This growth pattern has been the most frustrating thing with JBP for me. I'm currently working with some ideas from Jaw to try to force back budding along bare branches as I have not been able to get reliable results with the techniques I have used up to now and what were good trees are now good trunks with long branches.

Good luck with the journey and decisions

Post by **kcpoole** » January 17th, 2010, 8:44 pm

Easy as to do JBP as a layer
Treat them Exactly as you would any other tree, just might take longer if the wood is old.
I have done several and all have worked fine. I have posted on thread here photos of the process but cannot find them now

Used the "Split Pot" Method and worked a treat

Ken

kvan64 · Post by **kvan64** » January 17th, 2010, 9:04 pm

You are right Shibui, it was neglected and ill before I bought it. The branches looked elongated and it was also heavily rootbound. I trimmed it down, root pruned and fed it well for the last several months and happy to see the new needles. Pitty that the needles are now elongated too. If you know any successful technique please share with me. I'll post some of the before picture with less needles and clearer view of the trunk so that people could suggest where I should cut the ring.

Bretts · Post by **Bretts** » January 17th, 2010, 10:36 pm

I had the impression that younger wood struck roots more quickly and reliably than older wood but I have just thought about this. The cambuim, just under the bark is where the new roots come from and cambium is constantly renewing itself and forming new wood and bark so any cambium in a tree should always be new regardless of the age of the branch or trunk???? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

From what I have read age is a big concern when propagating, The older the part of the tree you use the worse the result in general. Off course aerial layers are done on older wood but I believe again once the perfect age for air layer is arrived at it becomes more difficult past this. With some species the stock plant that cuttings are taken from needs to be replaced as it has become too old.
Also the health of the tree is a great concern. The less vigorous the tree is the less success in any of the propagating techniques you will have.

Mojo Moyogi · Post by **Mojo Moyogi** » January 17th, 2010, 11:18 pm

Brett makes a valid point about the general health of propagation material, this is an important consideration. While it is true that airlayering younger parts of the tree is generally more successful, would this not defeat the purpose in kvan's case. Removal of the reverse tapered top of the tree and 18 months regrowth and more importantly redirection of growth may outweigh the benefit of any tree gained (or not gained) by airlayering, for example, 3-5 year old wood.
We are not talking about rare or unusual plant material here, after all.

Cheers
MM

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » January 17th, 2010, 11:47 pm

DK,

after looking at this post several times today i finally picked what was bothering me, in your first two pictures you show how it was and how it is now. what i have noticed is all the lower growth looks lush, green and healthy but the apex is still looking a bit ill... i am no black pine expert, i can even keep one alive but i find this to be a key to something going on with the tree... whether it is energy balancing or it just hasnt shot new buds up there, there is something just not sitting right with the way that is thats all. just not sure mate?

anyone else notice this?

jamie

dayne · Post by **dayne** » January 18th, 2010, 6:23 am

to be honest i dont think it looks healthy enough to even bother trying and the top bit you keep would be worht about $20 as stock you could loose all lower branches kepp only the apex pull it down go a litterati and carve a long shari twisted around the trunkthat will hide that bulge those lower branches are tiny and dont think they will ever grow sorry jmho

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