Toads

[Greth]

The RSPCA has tried being cooled to death and found it harmless?
Think if I had my choice I would die by blunt trauma almost instantly.

[bundyfisher]

If there was a way to deal with the toad problem as we do with introduced weeds eg privet ,celtis and the like it would be great

[Greth]

We still have privet and celtis problems, despite being allowed to deal with them anyway we want to.

[Rhiannon]

I'd opt for blunt force trauma for the cane toad on the condition it was instant.

I wish we'd stop trying to grow a lot of things in a land where it doesn't belong. Sigh.

But to the contrary, the people who brought us the cane toad were pollies. There was no scientific testing. It came essentially from one person making a recommendation at a council meeting and they took it as gospel. It came during an era where "acclimation" was an actual science and the idea of introducing novel species was seen as a great one (you can go thank Ferdinand von Mueller for that theory).

This time the "cure" is coming from geneticists and developmental biologists who are doing the research (in a nut shell, they've been able to alter the genome of female cane toads so that they have only male babies). It works already in the lab, but they won't implement it until they know this will succeed.

It is my sincerest hope that this time will be very different.

[Mojo Moyogi]

It came during an era where "acclimation" was an actual science and the idea of introducing novel species was seen as a great one (you can go thank Ferdinand von Mueller for that theory).

Ah, the evil Baron von Mueller, champion of the weeds. Australia's first eco-terrorist. Just invite him over for dinner and he would bring you some treasure from the Melbourne Botanical Gardens that you could plant in your garden. Blackberries and Hawthorn were a favourite.

Now there was a fellow that should have been placed in the top of the Kelvinator

MM

[Greth]

It really doesnt matter who introduced them, you the new scientist, me the old and hairy legged scientist, or Baron von Mueller, who may or may not have hairy legs but certainly built a beautiful garden, even if he didn't understand the behaviour of all plants or animals. The pollies only put a rubber stamp on something they thought was a good idea at the time. The question now is how to deal with a feral animal, do we cull a few gently or cut them back severely? There are thousands of tons of these animals to deal with, I don't personally want to spend three hours on each one and say the last rites before reverently handing it over for burial.
I really hope that this new treatment will cull them back severely, and I hope we see it soon. Our native animals cant hold out much longer.

[Rhiannon]

If you think clubbing them or running them over of even freezing them will make a difference to the impact they're having, I urge you to think again.

People have been doing so since they became an established pest, yet their numbers keep increasing and they keep spreading further. They've almost reached the boundaries of the physiological limitations on them, and that will be the only thing that will stop their spread. Do you really think our meagre efforts work?

You said you've studied ecosystems, but have you studies population dynamics? The basic rules of evolution: more offspring are produced than can ever survive. Each toad competes not only with other species, but within species. Most will die by stochastic processes, by the rules of evolution. We're just another stochastic process. We remove the competition between toads and allow the survival of the "fittest", that is those we cannot find. The toads have no predator here. At best, we're acting as one predator. But we're not stopping population growth. We're killing the "excess".

The killing of individuals is little more than a way to rid ourselves of guilt by "doing our bit". It's not a cure.

Like a I said, I'm speciest, too. Just like most who hold the same opinion as me, if there was a way that could rid all cane toads in an instant that was completely cruel and would induce suffering, we'd all probably jump at it. But this isn't it. This isn't fixing anything.

Which is why I ask only that if people feel the need to kill toads, they endeavour to do so by the most humane way possible.

[bodhidharma]

There was a section on Good News Week last night saying they are thinking of importing them to China for food and natural medicine. Apparently there toxin can cure headaches etc and they are good eating. Any astute people out there know if this is true

[Greth]

Yes I have studied population dynamics, my degree is in Environmental Biology, and then I have done post grad stuff since then.
I know this is a huge problem, and quite likely unsolvable in the long term, cane toads will always be present and will always breed like bunnies.
And yes I believe in kind solutions wherever and however possible. But I wouldn't be prosecuting everyone who ran over a toad with the car, and if they have a nice quick kill solution i won't ask them to share fridge space so that one little individual can die slowly in what the RSPCA calls peace. They don't really need poisonous amphibians next to their icecream. I would not advocate injuring them, but if you are sure of a quick kill, do it kind and fast.
If you are serious about being an environmental scientist then keep reading and thinking. Cats and Monarch butterflies are two examples of animals which have invaded this continent without human help. Things drift into our harbours on the bottoms of boats, we cant prevent all exchange with other countries. We have blocked a lot of things coming in, so that we can study the way the ecosystem looks at present, but Im sure there will be more invasions sometime. And if you look at fossil history, there were many times when a new organism has arrived and replaced the existing ones.In no cases did the world end, or the fat lady sing. We are moving to a new balance, best thing to do is keep your impact on the planet as light as possible, and get rid of any obviously nasty creatures, like cane toads.
Yes Bodhi, was talking to Chris about this last night, but in my opinion it will be a fad, and may be useful for a year or two at most.

[Rhiannon]

Any astute people out there know if this is true

Yes. It's also true that people here smoke the cane toad toxin to get high. It's an illegal substance here and you can be prosecuted for possessing it.

And yes I believe in kind solutions wherever and however possible.

I would not advocate injuring them, but if you are sure of a quick kill, do it kind and fast.

This is exactly what I'm saying, though. I don't believe people should be clubbing them if they cannot be sure it will work first time. Most members of the general public cannot be sure of that. They just smash away until they think it's dead. And that is what I have a problem with. The "why should we treat it with respect cause it's an invasive species" attitude I have a problem with. I don't believe that is fair.


Getting rid of cane toads I don't have a problem with.

[kvan64]

There was a section on Good News Week last night saying they are thinking of importing them to China for food and natural medicine. Apparently there toxin can cure headaches etc and they are good eating. Any astute people out there know if this is true

Good point. This reminds me the French's buttered frog legs recipe'. I guess toad meat would be similar if people know how to prepare it. I just hope that no one would try to farm them out of this idea though

INGREDIENTS

First Batch
20 small frog's legs (Or 10 big Toad's legs)
1 cup flour
4 tablespoons clarified butter
3 garlic cloves (minced)
4 tablespoons fresh parsley (chopped)
2 tablespoons fresh basil (chopped)
2 tablespoons fresh chives (finely chopped)
2 tablespoons fresh tarragon (finely chopped)
1/2 cup calvados (apple brandy, warmed)
1/2 cup dry white wine
1/4 cup sour cream
1/4 cup Worcestershire sauce
4 teaspoons capers
Second Batch
20 frog's legs or 10 Toad's legs
1 cup flour
4 tablespoons clarified butter
3 garlic cloves (minced)
4 tablespoons fresh parsley (chopped)
2 tablespoons fresh basil (chopped)
2 tablespoons fresh chives (finely chopped)
2 tablespoons fresh tarragon (finely chopped)
1/2 cup calvados (apple brandy, warmed)
1/2 cup dry white wine
1/4 cup sour cream
1/4 cup Worcestershire sauce
4 teaspoons capers
On the side
4 cups warm water
2 lemons (sliced)
2 loaves French bread (sliced)
Directions
1Do one batch at a time. Cook both batches prior to the meal. Serve 1/2 at a time while keeping the second batch warm.
2Dry frog/toad legs and lightly flour.
3Pour brandy into a sauce pan and warm on low.
4Gently fry frog/toad legs in clarified butter.
5Add the garlic and continue to saute, turn after two minutes.
6Add herbs. Remove from heat and add the warmed brandy. Return to heat to ignight.
7Shake pan to mix, then add white wine.
8Reduce the heat, cover and cook for another 4 minutes.
9Season with salt and pepper. Add sour cream, Worcestershire sauce, capers, and another splash of white wine.
10Serve in first batch shallow soup bowl with plenty of sauce. No eating utensils, but plenty of napkins and individual bowls of warm water with a slice of lemon in each for dipping fingers inches Have plenty of warm french bread for dipping, and wine for sipping.
11Serve second batch, and keep the bread and wine flowing.

[Greth]

Actually many members of the general public are pretty good at telling dead from non dead and kind from cruel. Anyway there are good reasons to kill them there are no excuses for cruelty along the way.
Thanks Kvan but I think I just lost my appetite.. All the herbs and stuff sound nice, just leave out the legs.