how to obtain taper in trees-discussion

[hugh grant]

wow !!! really great tree Grant, thats exactly how i would like to develop some of figs.
excelent tree, thaNKS FOR POSTING IT.

Hugh

[MattA]

I found a really good article on the pro's & cons of ground growing stock plants. The main cons being a poorer nebari due to less frequent root work. It also says that if you can prune the strong growing branchs regularly it will thicken even more than if you just let it grow.



Forget to mention where it is, Bonsai Focus 88 pg 80.
Next to an article on the reason for wiring

[kvan64]

In one of the Lindsay Farr video has a Japanese bonsai master talk about a technique involving the use of wire rings to swell up and thus fatten the base of JBP. The wires are left in the tree and eventually covered by the swelling. The young master also reviewed the wires in some of the dead trees to show what happen to them. He used this technique on all his pines and the pine farm has virtually hundreds of nice taper pines. Lindsay, please confirm this as I forgot the episo number!

[Jamie]

i have seen that episode DK it is interesting, i also found it quite amazing to see that they leave the dead trees in the paddock and dont even worry bout them to much, what i found even more amazing was how old would those trees have been??

any way, i have a question as to this topic it is a little more species specific, i have a swampy that has put on some girth just by powerfeeding, i also used Alpines technique of slicing the trunk vertically. (i think it was alpines) any ways the slices seem to be doing fine and i have noticed some considerable difference in the trunk size since doing so, i also have one part of the trunk where the slices had actually died off leaving a shari, which i dont mind either as i want a formal upright, but my prblem is that the tree doesnt really have a root flair, it just goes straight down into the soil. is there any way i can make the tree flair out some?

my plan is to actually grow this tree and get it to about 2 inches thick and then cut bact to about 12 inches or so tall and then carve the stump so the live part of the tree is at about 8 inches, i want it to create taper there but i cant see how i can do this while keeping it dead straight?? bit of help please


jamie

[tmewrp]

Have been thinking of trying that fusing technique, probably with some poplar cuttings that I struck this spring. After seeing the result on that fig, I'll give it a try!

Some time ago I tried an artificial method which involved abusing the trunk of a long-suffering juniper that I first styled in a BSV beginner's course. Having removed the only candidate for sacrifice, and the tree being reluctant to bud back, I was feeling desperate. It sounds rather drastic, and I can't remember where I read about it, but the idea was to cause a faster build of tissue associated with the healing process. My first effort involved bruising the trunk near the base (in one plane only at first, followed by a waiting period to be sure of no adverse effect before doing it all around). The following year I made some longitudinal cuts in the bark with a Stanley knife, again hoping to induce callousing.

Now, it is entirely possible that I did not go far enough in my mistreatment for fear of killing the tree, but I can report that I saw no appreciable result from either of these methods. In fact the tree is only now beginning to fatten slightly in this area, about 5 years later. Has anyone else tried such measures with success?

Oops! Sorry, Jamie I've just spotted your last post, in which you make mention of this technique. with regard to root flair, I'm getting reasonable results by growing my young stock on an inverted nursery pot within a slightly larger pot.

Hadley.

[dayne]

jamie i have tried with one of my swampys splitting the base but the problem was that it selled huge above the split i split it and pot a big bamboo wedge in now thats swelled im going to air layer at its widest and then start on a good root spread the roots thicken quick

[Bretts]

Not sure of what your tree looks like Jamie but there are a couple of ways I might go about getting taper in a formal upright. Find or train a lower branch into an upright position the when chopping back as a leader carve much of the wood away so that the branch can be bent vertical with little distortion of the trunk line.
Think you know that one.
The other is just simply to encourage good lateral roots that will increase the flair. I guess sacrifice branches would also be a possibility.

[Jamie]

well thats one way i wont be trying dayne i would be cautious with splitting the trunk on a swamp species anyway as rot would become an issue.

i know the first idea brett, i have thought bout that one, i havent tried the second one yet, i havent even worked the roots on this one yet, i got it as a ten mm whip now with power feeding and the slices it has blown out to about 20mm. so not to bad.

i havent tried growing on an inverted pot in a pot, that could be a possibility i would think it would need very regular repots though as the roots wouldnt get much space me thinks?

jamie

[craigw60]

I had to have a chuckle reading Hadleys post. these techniques have been discussed within BSV for years I have been to whole meeting nights on them in the past. There is no doubt they work but as with most things bonsai related the time frames are long. When I first tried this I was checking my trees very regularly with no sign of improvement. Eventually I gave up but did notice a real swelling of the base many years down the track. The technique I used was multiple stab wounds around the base of the trunk on a pine. The scars took a very long time to heal but the tree eventually improved as a result. Some of my trees with the best taper that is slow and gentle are the ones that have been grown in a bonsai pot their entire lives. It takes ages for this to happen but it does. I would be reluctant to use sacrifice branches on a formal upright as there is a real possibility of large scars upsetting the straight lines required for this style. I think these trees are better slow grown with care and patience in spades.
Craig

[Jamie]

thanks for your input craig, what you have mentioned is a bit of a worry in my eyes to for a formal upright. i would love to get some smooth taper from nebari to the top of the trunk, i think i am going to have to finde something with a decent sized trunk and chop back and then carve a jin at the top to imitate taper as such. and then grow out hopefully getting some nice smooth taper for the nebari.

if any one has some formal uprights i would love to see them, i reckon they are one of the harder styles to pull off convincingly.

jamie

[Jan]

If you were thinking of fusing figs over a frame (like the dugzbonsai maples) might I suggest using polystyrene foam?

If you visit a larger craft shop you find that they often carry “foam forms” (cones, balls, etc), select a form that you like and pin the seedlings to the surface using wire bent into a “U” shape and pushed into the foam, or glue. This material won’t rot, is light, can easily be dug out of the fused tree in a few years time leaving a hollow…just a thought,

Jan.

[Jamie]

very interesting idea jan. this would be especially good for creating shohin sized fused trees and the foam can easily be shaped any way you like, my only concern would be the amount of moisture in there between the foam and the trunks which could cause rot. but the way figs grow and fuse up here i dont think it would take to long anyways.

good alternative to the wire frame

[paddles]

I've heard of people trying the foam shapes, but they are too soft, and nearly impossible to anchor the trees to. A wire fram does seem to be the best. I hadn't thought of using figs (not a tree I've ever really had an interest in) I wonder how easily they grow from seed?

I was going to do a fused trunk wiht chinese elm that I grew from seed, but my father visited and decided to whipper snip the "weeds", not one tree was left standing more than 5 inches.

[Jamie]

figs should generally grow from seed well, mine still havent popped yet been about 5 weeks, not happy bout that, i have heard that the fresher the seed the better though, im not even sure what i got was fig seed, it looked like a lot of dust in a bag.

i was thinking of elm aswell as i had access to cheap whips, after asking bout it the consensus was that they wouldnt fuse aswell as maple or fig. it was said they would keep a cylindrical shape to the trunk. i never did try it though so they might fuse just fine.

jamie

[dayne]

swampys rot nah never they grow in about 1m of water their whole life in florida they wear fish waders and snorkle gear for yamadori do what you want to them they wont die