We have been told 6:1 for masculine powerful trees, we have been told 8:1 for elegant, feminine trees. We have even been told that 10 to 12:1 are acceptable. On the weekend at the AABC in sydney Salvatore Liporace, told us we should be using from 2:1 to 4:1 ratio if we want to build good and convincing "Bonsai"
What do you all think about Salv's advice???
Last edited by anttal63 on May 18th, 2010, 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
I jotted down what I thought he said - normal proportions should now be 1: 2 - 4, that's trunk diameter to height.
For literati I think he said 1: 6 and will at least 7 bends, one being the main one.
Interesting theory, but utter crap unless you are talking about collected olives. Sounds like a throw away line for the peasants, Ant.
I can't see Liporace throwing out half of his collection, can you? http://www.liporace.it/english/pag02.htm or Kimura's collection. I'd estimate that 2/3 of the fine quality bonsai in Japan is not of these suggested proportions either. Problem is, a few people are going to take this statement as being absolute gospel and are going to live and die by it. We don't all have the luxury of being able to bulldoze half of the mountains in Europe.
Cheers
Mojo
...Might as well face it, I'm addicted to Shohin...
"Any creative work can be roughly broken down into three components- design, technique and materials. Good design can carry poor technique and materials but no amount of expertise and beautiful materials can save poor design". Andrew McPherson - Furniture designer and artist
I would ask him what he thought of these trees to start with.
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I would not say 6:1 is a masculine tree I would say it is an average mature tree. Less than that is Masculine above that is feminine or gracfull
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It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
Gee Brett, they are so very skinny and unconvincing .
I love Walter's Scots Pine.
Cheers
Mojo
...Might as well face it, I'm addicted to Shohin...
"Any creative work can be roughly broken down into three components- design, technique and materials. Good design can carry poor technique and materials but no amount of expertise and beautiful materials can save poor design". Andrew McPherson - Furniture designer and artist
ellen wrote:I jotted down what I thought he said - normal proportions should now be 1: 2 - 4, that's trunk diameter to height.
For literati I think he said 1: 6 and will at least 7 bends, one being the main one.
Salvatore? I can't say I was impressed. Yes, the man can style - no doubt about it. But we learned more about his lucrative schedule, street trees in Rome and type of stock available in different regions of Italy. My impression [and not mine alone] was that Mr L was NOT impressed with Australian bonsai and treated us with some contempt. He waxed lyrical on non-bonsai minutia, all of which had to be translated. He spent ages plucking the unwanted needles from a cut off branch of mugo to show us proper wiring: slowly, meticulously, unendingly plucking while the tree he was paid to style and we paid to watch him style sat there and was styled in the tea break. I do understand that other countries have access to materials, both plant and product, that we don't have SO DON"T BLOODY WELL WASTE MY TIME AND MONEY TELLING ME ABOUT IT. Copper wire is the 'only' wire, aluminium is too weak and 'no one' uses it [as Chris hands him another length of aluminium]. Big Bonsai are OUT. No one [NO ONE???????] shows big bonsai anymore. 10-20 cm, 20-30 cm, 30-45 cm. Compact is the word. Small is beautiful. Mind you, the trees he was working on for his clients had to be between 50-100 cm but no one dared point that out. But then one can only presume they don't show them. Salvatore seems to deal in absolutes and a living art never presents an absolute!!
The stock he was working on in his photos from home showed some stunning stock, the sort of tree we rarely get here. But he derided the semi-cascade bonsai he was expected to work on as 'inferior for an international demonstrator' and yet made it into a lovely tree. I did speak to him and he was warm and friendly, no stuck up about him. But the impression I took away was contempt for our bonsai efforts and a presentation that would never have gotten him a return booking in Europe.
BUT, the man struck a heart string in me because he went on and on about PROPORTION. Our trees are too tall. We need to condense. This is something that I have harped on so often that I try to keep my mouth shut so I'm not run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered. Having said that, we do have stunning tall trees and while the trunk to height ratio that Salvatore was going on about has great merit, there is also great merit and style in tall trees with trunk widths well beneath the proportions he was on about. There is also the bonsai philosophy that goes for 'natural' trees and bonsaiing a tree close to its natural growth style. Can you imagine a short squat eucalypt? On the whole, No. And there was a Queensland Bottle Tree at the exhibition that was over a metre tall and magnificent. Not conventional styling but styled it was, in proportion it was and with Salvatore's ratio it would have been a stump. Proportion is not necessarily all about a ratio.
So he went on about the way proportion should be done as if it were black and white and while there was much merit in what he said, one has to take it with a grain of salt and adapt it to each individual tree. On his ratios I could go through my bonsai bench and end up with stumps. Even my mini saotome that is about 15cm high would have to be reduced. Give me a break!!!
I did learn more about styling from him but I do feel I could have been taught a lot more. Less about Italy and Sal, more about our beloved trees.
The local demonstrators were wonderful. Grant Bowie should be designated a National Treasure. He has such a quiet, laid back way of infusing such passion into his demos and he is simply SO GOOD. Chris and Clinton, with the help of Janet Selby's FUN pots, added a huge amount of zest and humour to the last presentation, ending the conference on a wonderful note. The other presenters were terrific as well.
Overall the convention was a great experience and Illawarra Bonsai Club did themselves proud on all fronts. I'm now going out with a tape measure and reassessing my trees and we ALL do need to really look with fresh eyes at our bonsai and consider trunk width to height ratio. And the upside of it is that small trees are easier to carry.
Last edited by MelaQuin on May 18th, 2010, 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mojo Moyogi wrote:Interesting theory, but utter crap unless you are talking about collected olives. Big base's are useless if there is no marriage and taper Sounds like a throw away line for the peasants, Ant.
I can't see Liporace throwing out half of his collection, can you? His collection is extremely transient. He usually sells a finished tree. You will find that his work has changed over the years.http://www.liporace.it/english/pag02.htm or Kimura's collection. Look again I'd estimate that 2/3 of the fine quality bonsai in Japan is not of these suggested proportions either. I was having a chat with someone who's opinion i respect and was recently in Japan.He confirmed that this is a very common formula in Japan. i hope he chimes in. Problem is, a few people are going to take this statement as being absolute gospel and are going to live and die by it. I for one am certainly entertaining the thought. What this actually means for me, is to get rid of much more material, rather than making more excuses as to why it should be called bonsai. Then i can focus and concentrate purely on Bonsai. We don't all have the luxury of being able to bulldoze half of the mountains in Europe. Thats a bit dramatic dont you think
Cheers
Mojo
Hey moj thanks for the input you have allowed me to think even deeper. BTW Walter's Scott will always be a corka!!!;)
Last edited by anttal63 on May 18th, 2010, 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hey Lee, I also feel very sorry for many people who attended. With an extremely difficult job at hand and as best she tried, the interperter's translations were very basic. Most of the time the whole essence of where this man was coming from, was lost. The words may have well been typed. My money was well spent and his talk is where i would like to walk or at least aspire to. An amazingly inspiring artist and teacher he is.
Last edited by anttal63 on May 18th, 2010, 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Again we have this potato. I have just received my latest copy of Bonsai Focus. In it there is an analysis, of a tree of Steve Tolly by Francois Jekker, page 80.
While I have not seen Salvatore Liporace I have seen pictures of his tree's, by his height ratios this tree by Steve Tolly should be thrown out.
It did however win at the Ginkgo awards in 2007 .
So again we have one mans opinion.
What makes me answer is as Mojo Moyogi has said there are many, as has already been expressed will follow blindly.
JMHO
Cheers Pup
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
The fun is gathering everyone's opinions and then filtering them, amalgamating them, distilling them and using the 'mix' on a specific tree as it brings out the best in that tree. And believe me, I would NEVER have looked at the little semi cascade as he did and do with it what he did but boy did it work. Fresh vision!!
I'm currently tree sitting 6 bonsai. This morning, with the owner's emailed permission, I have just twisted a 'lost in translation' semi cascade juniper into a full cascade with a great deal more pizazz and style that it had before. I think Salvatore's demo helped give me a bit more idea how to bring out 'better' in this tree. I didn't do what he would have done but what I have done has worked so and I think the owner will be pleased. Thanks for the inspiration, Sal.
I agree that Salvatore came up with the goods in the end but for me it was way too late. Inspiration was what we all wanted and he showed he was more than capable of giving us this but instead talked about soil and wiring ad nauseum. And used our time to promote his book and his bonsai school which was unforgivable. He could do with a few lessons in basic manners too. I think he treated his audience and hosts with contempt and his stunning work does not cancel this out. It was up to the other presenters to rescue the event which they did in spades.
MelaQuin wrote:The fun is gathering everyone's opinions and then filtering them, amalgamating them, distilling them and using the 'mix' on a specific tree as it brings out the best in that tree. And believe me, I would NEVER have looked at the little semi cascade as he did and do with it what he did but boy did it work. Fresh vision!!
I'm currently tree sitting 6 bonsai. This morning, with the owner's emailed permission, I have just twisted a 'lost in translation' semi cascade juniper into a full cascade with a great deal more pizazz and style that it had before. I think Salvatore's demo helped give me a bit more idea how to bring out 'better' in this tree. I didn't do what he would have done but what I have done has worked so and I think the owner will be pleased. Thanks for the inspiration, Sal.
I would love to see this juni you did Lee??? How bout a post??? One for Sal go on
ellen wrote:I agree that Salvatore came up with the goods in the end but for me it was way too late. Inspiration was what we all wanted and he showed he was more than capable of giving us this but instead talked about soil and wiring ad nauseum. And used our time to promote his book and his bonsai school which was unforgivable. He could do with a few lessons in basic manners too. I think he treated his audience and hosts with contempt and his stunning work does not cancel this out. It was up to the other presenters to rescue the event which they did in spades.
Hey Ellen im sorry you feel that way. I cant comment on Saturday, i wasnt there. From the time i did spend with him, i cant imagine getting tired of listening to him. Contempt; not once did i see or hear this from him. If he does come back here to do certified 7 day workshops, I will be there with bells on !!!
Yes Chris and Clinton at the end of the weekend were a corka laugh!!! thanks fella's.
. 
Pup
