TRUNK/TREE RATIO

[hugh grant]

I wouldn't be taking his words too harshly, he is from another country and has other opinions and ideas to what we would.
I didn't get to go (too much $$$ for me at this point in time) but if I did have the money I would have diffinetally gone to the demo and workshop. just to get another insight and knowledge from someone from another country would be a privilidge to me. Other nationalities would do things different so it is knowledge gained not wasted from my point of view from what others are saying.
And the ratio thing, trunk to height I wouldn't take it too harshly it is probably just his idea of a perfect tree, not that you have to go by this guideline. Well if you do look at a couple of his great works that fit to his ratio they are often quite wide and there domes or tops are alot flatter, as in they spread out more. But that's just what I think of it meaning to him and interpreting to us.

Hugh

[Pup]

From his comments that have been passed on he does not practice what he preaches. If you read the lastest edition of bonsai focus he had a young man staying with him for two months.

The photographs show the tree's with one exception to be in the( what is normal ) range. I prefer to use the Late John Y Naka idiom,

Make your Bonsai look like a tree. Not the other way round, but that is just my opinion, the same as his.

Just different.
Cheers Pup

[maryo]

Yes Sunday did make up for the the self promotion of Saturday. I know I am trying to get my collection down to easy lifting size,only due to age. Some of the collected trees we can obtain do not lend themselves to the harsh ratios that Sal gave us. Did anyone ever hear of "keng Fu" height before? I am not sure of the spelling since it came out of nowhere. For those who were not there one minute we are being told of the trend to smaller size and then we were shown pictures of trees that he works on that were "tree in pot" style (trees up to 1 meter).

[Gabriel]

Hi Maryo the word you looking for about the height is KIFU

[Webos]

Very interesting comments so far and I think that everyone who has commented has been correct in some way or another. I lived in another country for a long time, I learned to speak the language with a good degree of fluency and I know that it is extremely difficult to translate emotion. Very similar to reading an e-mail or forum post. People tend to read a post using their own emotions rather than that of the writer. It is very, very easy to misconstrue the true feeling of how the person is communicating their words. A lot can, and usually does get lost in translation and this is exactly what I think happened this weekend.

I did make a point of asking Gabriel (A great bloke who translated for Salvatore during the workshops) what kind of person he thought Salvatore was. Gabriel told me that he found Salvatore to be an extremely sincere and friendly man who truly wants to help all of us to develop our understanding of Bonsai, it's techniques, culture and art and to help Australians to see his perspective on whats happening in Bonsai around the globe.

As you may have seen from the posts in this thread, a lot of feathers were ruffled during this years conference. I think there was a huge difference between what attendees wanted to learn, and what Salvatore felt he needed to teach us. I think that a some of what people believed to be waffling on about soils and wiring, was actually spurred on by attendees asking question after question about them. If thats true, then Salvatore was only being accommodating by spending the time to answer each individual question in depth.

It may be cliche to say that with any demonstrator, it's up to you to get what you like from the presentation, but I believe that it's particularly true with Salvatore. There was a wealth of knowledge in there for anyone willing to listen with open eyes, ears and an open mind.

I think that all of the ignorance/arrogance that people believe they say in the man was mostly mistaken. I saw him as similar to a footy coach who sees a team with potential who are not using it to its full degree. Basically he told us that its time Australia pulled it's finger out. It's time to fully embrace the species we have here. He is sure that there are hundreds of species that we have to choose from so it's time to get out there and dig some trees rather than almost solely relying on nursery stock of the classical Bonsai species. He said that 20 years ago, Italy's Bonsai scene was the same as Australia's and that there was no reason that we cant step up to the international stage by working with our natives. He also said that he believed competition to be a big reason for Italy's step up in the Bonsai world.

Pup got it right. He is one man and his opinion is his own. So I think it's important to listen to his advice and add it to your minds Bonsai library. You can then use what you can in the situations you see fit. He said more than once during the weekend "I will show you my approach to Bonsai and show you what I do with the trees I work on...So after I've gone, you can do whatever you like with your trees"

I loved it, I got a lot out of it and as I do with every demonstrator and I have taken home a wealth of knowledge.

[anttal63]

Hi Maryo the word you looking for about the height is KIFU

The new size is Kifu; 20 to 30 cm. Also congratulations gab on a brilliant delivery of translations during the workshops. i think you should become his official interpeter.

Webos a great summary !!! Glad to hear you got lots out of it.

[Bretts]

Mela"
So he went on about the way proportion should be done as if it were black and white and while there was much merit in what he said, one has to take it with a grain of salt and adapt it to each individual tree. On his ratios I could go through my bonsai bench and end up with stumps. Even my mini saotome that is about 15cm high would have to be reduced. Give me a break!!!

I have never been so impressed by a post of yours Mela. America is still complaining about what the rules did to thier countries progression in Bonsai. A good friend of mine is still scared by trees she says's she has ruined following the rules.
This statement of ratios from Salvatore can never be black and white.
The Rules could be black and white if you are willing to read the encyclopedia of Britannica equivalent to Bonsai rules.
Take the rule.

Height should be six times the caliper of the trunk.

I go on about how impressed I am about the rules. This is because I find it amazing how much can be implied by so few words. You could write a book expanding on just this one simple rule before you covered all bases and where able to say the rules are never broken. That could be volume one in the Encyclopedia Bonsai.
If we all had to sit down and read that to create great trees bonsai would be pretty boring.
The fun comes when you work out what has been said in so few words means so much more

I am also very impressed with your Post Webos. I am very proud to be Australian because in general we have proven ourselves to be very open minded to other cultures opinions. Even if we don't agree on the whole with an opinion it should not be forgotten to at least try and look from the different perspective that has been offered to us.

"I will show you my approach to Bonsai and show you what I do with the trees I work on...So after I've gone, you can do whatever you like with your trees"

I loved it, I got a lot out of it and as I do with every demonstrator and I have taken home a wealth of knowledge.

Can't ask for any more than that

[anttal63]

If i didnt do this excercise i would not have believed either.This is all i have time for but the list goes on & on & on & on & on & on.

[dayne]

ant im a bit bummed i missed you at the aabc but i only did the sales area and the display melb for sure hey i hear you if we want to be on a world stage we need to aim alot higher and stop winging about stock the stocks there its just alot taller than it needs to be so if its not an elegant tree or a literati lets compress and chop allso feed more were not going to get big stock without plenty of fert and its not going to happen over nite the other problem is who knows more than a handfull of youngens that a serious its an oldys game and their attitude is im to old to start somthing like that so im happy with what i have we need a bonsai revolution not just a bit of a shake up
lets get the kids involved their the future im 28 and feel im not taken seriously often because of my age id like to see some teens in their really stirring the pot
adopt a bonsai kid today

[anttal63]

ant im a bit bummed i missed you at the aabc but i only did the sales area and the display melb for sure hey i hear you if we want to be on a world stage we need to aim alot higher and stop winging about stock the stocks there its just alot taller than it needs to be so if its not an elegant tree or a literati lets compress and chop allso feed more were not going to get big stock without plenty of fert and its not going to happen over nite the other problem is who knows more than a handfull of youngens that a serious its an oldys game and their attitude is im to old to start somthing like that so im happy with what i have we need a bonsai revolution not just a bit of a shake up
lets get the kids involved their the future im 28 and feel im not taken seriously often because of my age id like to see some teens in their really stirring the pot
adopt a bonsai kid today

Dayne i am sorry i missed you too! I asked about you, shannon filled me in. Dayne your like a breath of fresh air. You are a do er not a gunna!!! You get it !!!Its young guys like you, help me to believe things are gonna change here. Hence the revolution is already on the door step. Im not goin any where and i will be there when that day arrives, that this wonderful country of Australia is truly on the world stage, shakin the floor and rattling the rafters. Any young people wanna get on board i will always be there for them!!! Just one thing... im not here to make excuse's, fiddle or play games any more. I am about the real deal. So if my kitchen's too hot for ya...stay out! and just enjoy your hobby. We all got a hell of a lot more to learn. Lets do it together!!!

[Watto]

This has been a really interesting topic that has got some responses that are passionate. I was wondering if the ratio should be nabari to height ratio and we may have lost a little in translation?
That said, if you have access to the books produced after Kokufu each year you will see that the ratio is being reduced progressively. The older books show taller thinner trees whilst the more recent additions show wider shorter trees. This is of course a generalisation because there are exceptions to every rule (especially in bonsai) but there certainly appears a trend towards the 6:1 ration moving towards a 4:1 ratio, or maybe even to the 3:1 ration that Salvatori was refering to. This could be just fashion, the problem with bonsai fashion is that it takes 10 or 20 years to change!!
The information from Salvatori, like all international and national instructors, should be stored away in the memory bank (better still to take notes and photos) and used to critically analyse our own trees so we may continue to improve them.

[stymie]

Having read the above, I cannot help but assume that Salvatore had heard of the Ozzie habit of using opposites to describe anything and was trying to be 'one of the boys'. Then again, he could have been using circumference rather than diameter in his ratio reference. This may have got mixed up in the translation. LOLcirconferenza e diametro

[Bougy Fan]

I tend to think of the "rules" more as guidlines to help attaining a natural looking tree, as opposed to attaining a perfect bonsai. Personally I subscribe to the school of thought perpetuated by the likes of Walter Pall and Harry Harrington. I want my trees to look like minature real trees, and after all the work is done to look like a human hand has not touched them. I think most of the "rules" help to attain this, but from a lot of posts we see nature does things that we would have difficulty accepting in a "perfect" bonsai. I think Bonsai is a personal thing to an extent - most of the time the tree is going to be sitting in your garden and you are going to be looking at it all the time. If it is not pleasing to your eye - what's the point ?

[craigw60]

I just want to respond to Dayne. I am currently running beginner classes for the yarra valley club with 13 people in the class ranging from 12 to late 60s at a guess.
Its so hard to deal with such a mixed age group my reaction is to want to direct the lessons to the younger people as the time frames involved in growing good bonsai are reasonably long. I have been trying to convince the older folk that its possible to grow good shohin within a 5-7 year period but its an uphill battle. If they don't pay attention then I know they are going to end up with twigs in pots and my time is wasted. Very frustrating.
With regards to the growing of good stock I believe its starting to happen now and in the next 5-10 years we will see some very nicely grown bonsai material starting to emerge. I am 50 and I am still starting plenty of new trees that I will never see reach maturity thats how the world goes.
Craig

[Gerard]

Having read the above, I cannot help but assume that Salvatore had heard of the Ozzie habit of using opposites to describe anything and was trying to be 'one of the boys'. Then again, he could have been using circumference rather than diameter in his ratio reference. This may have got mixed up in the translation. LOLcirconferenza e diametro

This was questioned at the time, Salvatore made it clear that he meant diameter.
Personally I will take the imformation on board and I suspect that my appreciation for these low ratios will increase as will my desire to own and create them. We are all on a learning curve, but I am not ready to throw away my taller more elegant trees as I still find they are pleasing.

Regards Gerard