Box elder maple Acer negundo Root over rock

[Bretts]

This is one of my first root over rocks from when I started. It has had several years of growth underground and was going OK but whenever I uncovered it it seemed it would be of benefit to select some roots for removal but I could never decide which ones so I would wrap it back up and bury it again. Last year although I don't think the roots have a convincing clasp yet I decided to leave it uncovered so I could study it exposed to choose a direction but I am still very unsure. So I thought I might post it up to see what you guys think.
I have not seen much Box elder as bonsai so I am not sure I can get the leaves to reduce enough for this design?
The plan for spring will be to remove some roots (not sure which still) wrap it up very tight bury it again select a leader direction and grow vigorously for another year or two. Then the fun of seeing if I can get this to work as bonsai begins.
My mate Pol reckons the roots are fine as is. What do you think?

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[kcpoole]

I reckon the are OK

Just remove the crossing ones ( the firs photo has a big on from the RH group. An I would also remove any that are flying out and not attached but the rest is fine to me

Ken

[craigw60]

Hi Brett, you have done a good job with the roots you just need to keep sorting them out over the next few years, cutting back to the ones which are hard against the rock. I have one serious issue with your tree, you have created beautiful curves at the base following the line of the rock, but then the tree shifts into a strong no taper straight piece of growth which is totally incongruous with the base of the tree. I have made the same mistake so many times. Its so important to wire in the curves before you do the strong growing. In my opinion you need to bite the bullet and cut it back hard get a new leader to wire then strong grow again.It may be painful medicine to cut off all that growth now but in the long term your'll have a much better tree.
Craig

[Bretts]

Thanks Guys. I hadn't really had it up on the bench yet and now I do I think I can see some to remove much as you say. Also some can be wrapped further around at the back of the rock more. I could probably start snipping them now but I will try and make myself wait.

I agree the trunk is not right yet either Craig and as always it shows up more in pics . The first plan was creating a new a new leader some where in the blue circle. I love the natural movement of the left branch tagged 2 and I would consider chopping just above this but there is already a slight inverse taper from the previous chop scar and the multiple branches at this point so I would not go lower than as indicated by the green line.
Next I considered chopping down to the first right branch as indicated by the blue line creating more of a semi cascade?

Last option is to chop the lot of as indicated by the lowest green line and starting from there. After looking back through some older pics I think that is the best option. Does not scare me doing that but maybe it might do better with a stint in the ground if I do that.

I have a root over ornament Box Elder that I did for fun (it was a possible candidate for my ruins pot but is now too big) I should get a picture of that up here for a laugh
Anyway here are some more pictures of this one first!

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[Bretts]

Here is the root over ornament I did for a little fun. It got away from me growing in the ground and is a bit too big. It needs another trunk chop but will be way to big for the ornament by the time I grow a new trunk. I don't think it is worth replacing or removing all together so I think I will just continue to have a bit of a laugh with it. Might be interesting one day in a non-conformist type of way
It is an interesting comparison though as this went in the ground over the ornament a year or two after I started the root over rock above.

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I would think Box elder would need to be fairly large in bonsai to suit the leaves so I think a root cull wrap chop and into the ground will be the best option for the root over rock.

[craigw60]

Hi Brett as you know I would go for the lowest cut or below that. Don,t worry about branches yet, get the trunk right first. If you do the chop keep it in a pot for 12 months so you can properly train a new leader and wire curves into it, then plant out next year. A semi cascade would be great I was talking to Jamie about that last week and posted a pic of one of my semi cas tridents on a rock. Its in his r o r clero thread.This style is my favorite for r o r.
Craig

[Bretts]

I wasn't sure where you where thinking of chopping so thanks for clarifying, looking at the tree today I agree it needs a chop about there too. I guess leaving it out of the ground to refine would be a better option. In that case I might not repot this year just remove roots needed chop the top and have a year to refine the new leader direction and movement.
I wasn't expecting much from this tree but with that plan it might even make a nice bonsai one day.

Still have to decide on the new leader direction. I might have to chase down the semi cascade ROR you speak of for a look?

[craigw60]

Brett, you have made a great start with the trunk base just follow that line, From that trunk base you could so easily follow into a semi cas. If you can't get the leaf size down then it will become a winter tree, make a beautiful structure and enjoy it while its bare.

[Bretts]

Here are the two options I am thinking of with a new leader and ground growing.

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Tried several times but it is not a great cascade virt

[craigw60]

The first option looks good but you may need to come up with a less formal branch design to accommodate the trees foliage, it will be difficult to create neat foliage pads with acer negundo
The cascade virt kind of works to I can see it with intensely wired branches, heaps of twists and turns.

[Bretts]

Thanks for your insight into this Craig it is much appreciated. I was just doing a google search looking for one of these in Bonsai with no luck. But I did know there was at least one
Lloyd out at Batemans Bay Bonsai has one but he calls it Yellow Boxwood Maple. He has a current picture of it on his site

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http://www.batemansbaybonsai.com/

It looks some what different to when I saw it at his nursery a few years back. At that time it was one of my favourites of his.

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Comparing the two pictures it does look as though the leaves have reduced some what so that is promising.

The idea of the virt with the apex above the rock was that the trunk heads towards the back of the composition adding depth. Finishing forward again. So the first left branch would be a fair way back in the composition giving plenty of room for the pad. Apex fairly central which worries me some that it would be a little static over the rock but looking now I am confident with a heavy first right branch it would not be static. I think would be happy with the two pads and an apex pad.
I think I am talking myself into the upright movement. I could always change my mind later to a cascade style with that heavy right branch.

[craigw60]

A couple of foliage pads and a crown sounds good nice and simple. with the branches it might be best to train them with a more upwards slant then wiring them flat.

[Bretts]

I have got a downward flow to the branches haven't I
Thanks again Criag

[Bretts]

I ended up going with the cascade idea with this one Craig. Thanks for the idea

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Grinded the base of the tree into the rock and secured with pipe clamps. Should be fun to work with from here

[lackhand]

Any updates on this one Brett?