watering and different mediums

[Jamie]

hi guys

after reading a bit about watering and different mediums i think starting a discussion on this would be good. we have a thread on here i started a while back about watering and fertilising that went a fair way and good discussion was found, i want this thread to be the same with no cat fights..

i beleive incorrect watering is the one of the major causes of bonsai loos, especially with beginners, what else has to be taken into account is your location, the medium your trees are in and also the micro climate your bonsai create.

i use diatomite as my main ingredient in my mixes, with a small part of it being an organic of a commercial bonsai mix. depending on what species my mix can be from 70% diatomite 30% commercial, through to 100% diatomite which i use for figs.

generally i can water once a day and my trees are happy, sometimes it is once every 2 or so days. i have learnt my trees, how much they need and when it is needed. on hot days it can sometimes be twice a day watering if not three times, this is a bit rare as moost of the time it is a mild temperature of about 22-29 degrees, we do get a hot spell over summer where it can get up to about 35-39 degrees, i havent seen a day up here over 40 degrees.

my trees also create there own micro climate, this can create a fair bit of humidity in and around the trunk and space between the canopy and the pot.
that in turn develops arial roots in figs, but what about those trees that arent that keen on humidity, i have to put it in a place where the humidity that is created will be lower. just moving a tree into a shady spot can do this and work just fine. all my trees get full sun apart from a short spell where it is the hottest part of the day.

another factor is wind, it doesnt take much more than a constant breeze that can dry a pot out on a hot day within a couple of hours. this factor can be easily fixed by using some for of protection whether it is screening or shade cloth or similar.

watering correctly is something that should be watched carefully, watering when your tree NEEDS it not just by schedule. checking the medium is definately something that should be part of the routine, if its just moist give it a drink! watering until water runs out the bottom of the pot, waiting a couple of minutes and repeat the process, this should ensure water is getting to the roots. im not keen on emerging the tree in water but it can work well for a tree that is heavily pot bound and its not repot time.

remember some trees are happy to be soaking alot of the time while others prefer to be on the dryer side. pines are an example of some which like it to dry out some in between where as a species like taxodium distichum- swamp cypress love the water, so a more moisture retentative medium can be used.

ok i think i have rambled enough for now lets here YOUR opinions and thoughts on it all

jamie

[Bretts]

Hey Jamie great subject. What do you think about Walter suggesting that in modern mixes you can't over water no matter what the species

[kcpoole]

As I am Diatomite/Zeolite user i believe overwatering is impossible unlkess you have the trees sitting in a tray or constatly being rewatered. I water via Spray system on a timer, and all of my pots do not sit fdlat on the bench so they will not sit in a puddle all day

In summer I only water daily unless really hot ( I do not have many Shohin or smaller), and those i do have i put into a sand tray.

In The cooler months ( starting last weekend) I reduce my waterings to once every 2 days
Ken

[Matthew]

Jamie i will be moving alot of my trees with the exception of ficus into a diatomite, decomposed granite type mix. My mix was fine for hot humid central queensland with dry winters but NE vic is very different. The winters are usually quite wet and with COLD temps combined my current mix will stay too wet i believe. Ill just watch my watering and tilt trees if nessasary untill spring My new plan mix will still have some organics but will be under 20% which is alot diffent to my current one.

[Handy Mick]

I don't use any of those other medium's as yet, I will though. At the moment I mix my own using a basic potting mix, sand and crushed granite.
I water every 1-2 days depending on the weather sometimes every 3-4 days in winter, my mix needs to stay damp for a while longer as we are on water tanks. My trees love the mix that I use.

[Rhiannon]

i beleive incorrect watering is the one of the major causes of bonsai loos

I totally just had a giggle fit imagining what a bonsai dunny would look like. I love typos.


I always can water. The trees I have are all in different mediums, as they're all from different places and I haven't got to repot time yet. Most of them dry out around the same time, though. Today being the first exception where one of my figs was still pretty damp, so I left it out.

I haven't had any trees die on me. On the contrary, they've been growing all over the place, so I figure I must be doing something right. I'm only just now going into my 6th month of owning my Jac, so I still have plenty of time to screw up. I usually water my trees once a day. Over summer I sometimes had to twice a day. In the hotter months, I prefer to water in the morning then go again in the afternoon if needed. I heard somewhere a saying that went something like "in Bonsai it rains twice". When I have time, I water once then follow it up 10-20 minutes later with a second lot. Life doesn't always accommodate for that, though.

Lately, though, it's been so cold I haven't had to water a lot at all.

One thing I've wondered, though, is how wet is wet?

This hasn't been a concern for me until now, as this is my first winter. In summer, the plants would dry out quickly and it was easy to tell when to water. But now they seem to just vary from soaking wet to moist. When it gets to 3 days without watering them cause they've appeared wet the whole time, I get paranoid and water them anyway.
How do you tell what level of moist is dry enough to warrant another drink?
With the on and off again rain that's typical Melbourne, sometimes they never even get to moist. When we've had a few days of stop/start rain, I've watered every 2 or 3 days anyway cause I figured the rain wasn't enough to have penetrated to the roots. But is that wrong?

Also, is it true that natives like to be watered more frequently?

[Jamie]

Hey Jamie great subject. What do you think about Walter suggesting that in modern mixes you can't over water no matter what the species

actually i beleive there is some chance of over watering even with modern mixes, it is all dependant on the mix and whether it is open enough that it drains or not, in my instance i have a percentage of organic where it can hold a fair bit of moisture if this wasnt controlled in the watering then yes i beleive it could be over done, this would depend on how much organic was in it and how often it was watered, also with the case of poor quality pots with divets in the bottom where water can pool, or grow boxes without sufficient drainage holes. thats just my thoughts though and Walter might be right about it, i wouldnt mind reading it if he has it in his blog or not? all in all i reckon if there was those factors and incorrect watering methods then even with modern mixes it could be over done and cause problems.

Ken has got his setup really well with thought put into the area and watering system, with the way ken has described i couldnt see watering a problem, personally i like to hand water my trees and spend the time watering them and checking each one, it may take a bit longer but i have had the privledge of having the time to do it to, i can understand some collections it is just not feasable to do this and auto systems are needed. if this was my position with an auto setup i would be checking and maintaining the system just to be sure that it didnt have a failure where an area either got no water or to much.

Noah, thats what i was trying to make aware to some of the newer people with how our mixes can change the way we should work with our trees re watering, your move was a big one and climate and micro climate will be completly different, changing your mix would be a deffinate advantage to handle the cold and wet of were you are now. i think you could move your figs to a diatomite mix aswell without issue, i have mine in 100% they love it, mixing in an organic wouldnt hurt though i dont reckon mate.

Mick, it sounds to me like you have worked out exactly to how your trees respond and what they need, living on tank water can be hard enough without trying to keep trees and gardens alive too! i would be doing exactly the same as you in your position, i would also consider what species can and do handle drier soils/mediums and working with them to.

Rhiannon, ...... good spot!

it sounds like you have things under control, especially if things a growing well! the only thing i would say is make your new mix when you repot to suit the trees, that way you will have that little bit moe control of the watering situation and this will help, i wish someone taught me how to water correctly when i first started, i was killing trees left right and centre and wasnt sure why, i beleive 90% of the losses i had was killing with to much care which is what most people do when they get into bonsai.

thanks guys this is great, lets keep it going

jamie

[Handy Mick]

Jamie your right with to much care kills, how many times have you guy's heard " you do bonsai, can you look at this?" the person has been given a bonsai by someone 10 years ago, they treat it like any other plant and they survive 10 years plus in a pot No trimming, No root prune, No feed and NO LOVE!

[bodhidharma]

Jamie your right with to much care kills, how many times have you guy's heard " you do bonsai, can you look at this?" the person has been given a bonsai by someone 10 years ago, they treat it like any other plant and they survive 10 years plus in a pot No trimming, No root prune, No feed and NO LOVE!

This is so true!!! A friend of mine repotted and trimmed a couple of trees for an older lady who had been given them 15 years previous. She had done nothing but water them and left them sitting in the garden. Anyway, not getting off thread, Very open mix with added purlite, home made compost and 3mmscoria. Watering, i am happy if they are done every day in Summer. Conifers at the moment every second day, deciduous every third.

[Rhiannon]

i wish someone taught me how to water correctly when i first started, i was killing trees left right and centre and wasnt sure why, i beleive 90% of the losses i had was killing with to much care which is what most people do when they get into bonsai.

The Jac I got given for Christmas came with an A4 'how to' guide. Looking back, it was overly simplistic and, well, wrong. But I knew from seeing Bonsai that this was no mean feat, so I got online and spent literally days reading bonsai4me. That saved me (or my trees?), cause I knew no one with a green thumb, so otherwise I would have been clueless. Still, it's one thing reading it and another putting it into practice.

Threads like these help heaps, hearing what people have learnt with their own trees is invaluable, so cheers for starting this up.


Oh, and how do you know what mix is best for what tree? I'm dreading when it's time to repot cause I'm still so confused by the billion different opinions on soil mixtures.

[senseijames]

Rhiannon, I was just about to put up a post regarding a mix for Junipers, maybe there has been a post in the past on this subject, I don't know because I'm only new here, so hang about and I will open a new post on Mixes so as we do not stop Jamie's post from progressing ( sorry Jamie for interrupting, mate ). cheers
James
PS: I think I tend to over water, specially my figs, because they get a jelly like slime growing on the moss at times.

[Bretts]

Here you are Jamie
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/ ... -myth.html

actually i beleive there is some chance of over watering even with modern mixes, it is all dependant on the mix and whether it is open enough that it drains or not, in my instance i have a percentage of organic where it can hold a fair bit of moisture if this wasn't controlled in the watering then yes i beleive it could be over done, this would depend on how much organic was in it and how often it was watered, also with the case of poor quality pots with divets in the bottom where water can pool, or grow boxes without sufficient drainage holes. thats just my thoughts though and Walter might be right about it, i wouldnt mind reading it if he has it in his blog or not? all in all i reckon if there was those factors and incorrect watering methods then even with modern mixes it could be over done and cause problems.

I think a modern mix by definition would be an open mix. The water to air ratio is optimal right after watering so this is why over watering is not an issue with these mixes. Pots that don't drain or have divets are a separate issue and I guess Walter didn't bother putting them into the equation.

I tend to think these days that if you have a decent mix and it is not drying out at least once a day in the growing season then there is something not right with the tree. Maybe the pot is too big or the tree is unhealthy.

As stated above there are times such as my Mate pol who fights drainage to save water. Although he has great results I do wonder if he could do better with a better draining setup. There is often a little banter on the size difference of the drainage holes in the pots we make.
The fact is that there is an optimum water to air ratio in pot culture and the quicker the tree gets to it after watering and then stays there the better the tree will be.
If you think about if the water to air ratio is higher than the tree likes after watering then you are expecting the tree to use a certain amount of the water it is sitting in before it can grow happily. Sounds a bit much to ask of the tree I reckon

I did some tests today on water holding of mediums at 100% I am looking forward to doing the same test with my final mix this year. With some organics added I will be interested to see what results I get.