DIATOMITE ??

[senseijames]

There has been alot of talk in the bonsai circles that using a larger gravel(or larger grade medium) at the bottom of the pot as the Japanese have recommended is counter productive to drainage.
I was very glad that another member posted this link up as it explains what they are talking about very well.
http://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com/2 ... ayers.html

If you understand this correctly it is not really counter productive to drainage. What is actually happening is it moves the water table off the bottom of the pot. I think this could be very useful in certain situations and maybe the Japanese do know what they are doing when it comes to what we call a drainage layer. Is it so bad to make the water sit towards the top of the pot rather than on the bottom.

This is what I find so amusing about alot of the advice we receive. The reality of this advice is so different than what was going around.

I am not really sure what this means as far as Diatomite goes though Grant. Keeping the grade the same as the rest of the pot but a more absorbent medium is some what different. Would be very interesting with a glass pot so we could see what happens! Maybe the water would still sit at the bottom of the pot only to be soaked up by the diatomite? Maybe the water table would just move further up the pot as when we use a larger grade at the bottom?
Who's got a glass with holes in it?

Hey Brett, that web site is extremely interesting and makes a lot of sense, hope more people read it ( the sponge test proves the point ) , thanks for posting it, hey mate have you checked your PM's lately. Cheers
James

[Bretts]

Hi James
The sponge illustration is very good. I think that was a quote from Brent which I read before explaining how a flat bonsai pot drains less than a taller cascade pot or even a nursery pot.
Although this guy does a great job of explaining the whole issue and even explores the advantages of using a "drainage layer" or better said as varying grades in a pot. I think he may be mistaken (and I see this suggestion through the whole article) by suggesting that a pot that has the saturation layer moved upwards by a coarse layer at the bottom actually holds more water than if it didn't.

the addition of a drainage layer in the bottom of a container does not improve drainage, but merely increases the height of the saturation zone in any given container/bonsai pot and in turn, increases the water carrying capacity of the substrate rather than decreasing it. In other words, the same pot without a drainage layer will hold less water because of the height of the column of water prior to the impermeable layer (the bottom of the pot).

Yes as is represented by the sponge if you took two pots a tall one and a flat one of the same volume the flat one will hold more water after draining. But if you add a coarse layer at the bottom of a pot and lift the saturation layer then compare it to the same pot without a coarse layer. You are in fact comparing a smaller flatter pot to a larger taller pot!
I think the smaller area here even though it is a flatter shape will actually result in less water being held when you use a coarse layer at the bottom.

[Grant Bowie]

Akadama/Diatomite/Attapulgite are water absorbing and may hold the excess water in themselves rather than it sitting on the bottom of the pot and slowly release.?

It would certainly allow better aeration.

Grant

[Joel]

Hi James
The sponge illustration is very good. I think that was a quote from Brent which I read before explaining how a flat bonsai pot drains less than a taller cascade pot or even a nursery pot.
Although this guy does a great job of explaining the whole issue and even explores the advantages of using a "drainage layer" or better said as varying grades in a pot. I think he may be mistaken (and I see this suggestion through the whole article) by suggesting that a pot that has the saturation layer moved upwards by a coarse layer at the bottom actually holds more water than if it didn't.

the addition of a drainage layer in the bottom of a container does not improve drainage, but merely increases the height of the saturation zone in any given container/bonsai pot and in turn, increases the water carrying capacity of the substrate rather than decreasing it. In other words, the same pot without a drainage layer will hold less water because of the height of the column of water prior to the impermeable layer (the bottom of the pot).

Yes as is represented by the sponge if you took two pots a tall one and a flat one of the same volume the flat one will hold more water after draining. But if you add a coarse layer at the bottom of a pot and lift the saturation layer then compare it to the same pot without a coarse layer. You are in fact comparing a smaller flatter pot to a larger taller pot!
I think the smaller area here even though it is a flatter shape will actually result in less water being held when you use a coarse layer at the bottom.

I hear what you are saying Brett.

In soils in the ground, this is the case. If you have a loam soil sitting on top of a coarse sand soil, the water will get retained in the micro pores of the loam and not penetrate into the coarse sand, which leads to a perched water table. However, in the case of a bonsai pot, the soil is completely contained, and there is always going to be a macro pore at the bottom.... where the hole is. So unless you have some sort of capillary wick going into the ground, you are always going to end up with a perched water table unless your mix has a high macro pore content throughout it. Since diatomite is both micro and macro pore rich, there shouldn't be too much water perching at the bottom.

Joel

[Chris_Melbourne]

I've been looking into a few similar soil components too. And trying to see where i can buy them. It's frustrating to read about bonsai soil components which are supposed to be great, but which you cannot find in your country.

I made a picture comparing a couple of the ones available near Melbourne, and thought it could be useful to others as well. One is chandler pet litter (i've seen it at both Safeway and Coles supermarkets), one is Richgro aquatic planting mix (from Bunnings), and the last is Maidenwell diatomite (from Gardenworld). I've included pics of the bag they come in, so there is no confusion.

I took a handful of each and photographed them side-by-side, both dry (top row) and wet (middle row). Some of the particles have colours that aren't visible until you've wet them.

Another one I want to check out is called Festiva BBQ Fat absorber, which they sell at Safeway. Apparently it's 100% zeolite, which i've never used before. There was also some scoria at gardenworld, but it was $5 for a tiny bag (1kg?).

(Feel free to use this image how you want, or re-post it, edit it, or anything like that)

[Bretts]

I should mention that what I used in my above experiment as diatomite was Richgro aquatic planting mix (from Bunnings) When Ken and myself compared this product a year ago we figured they where the same. The bag does not say what it is and although it is obvious the colours are different I guess it is the same mineral but from a different area.
Looking at them side by side like this I could be wrong? but then Mt Sylvia diatomite is also a different colour than maidenwell!

[Jamie]

hi chris

i know of the BBQ fat absorber i found it at bigW and thought it might be alright, i have found it is quite small in particle size and doesnt not break down either, the biggest prob i found with it is actually compaction, for some reason it compacts down rather tight after a few waterings. what i have done with it is use it in a mix with diatomite and found it to be a good addative. it said it was 100% zoelite yet when i opened it, to me it was more like diatomite, it is the same colour as diatomite wet and dry and was a completly different colour to the zeolite i bought from a rural supplier.

in a mix, great, by itself maybe not the best. that was my findings anyways i will get some pics for it as soon as i possibly can.

jamie

[kcpoole]

Just did a test on zeolite and diatomite.
Used 100mm (500ml) nursery pots full of medium.
I graded the medium as best I could but the diatomite was slightly larger.
Zeolite dry weight 680g Diatomite dry weight 398g
Waterd each medium with 1L of water through a fine rose watering can and any that drained out was collected.
After 15 mins
Zeolite wet 755g (75g increase) Diatomite wet 524g (126g increase)
Shortly after I measured the collected run of from each pot and found that the Zeolite medium had absorbed 60ml the Diatomite had absorbed 120ml
This means the zeolite pot now holds about 12.5% water volume and the Diatomite holds about 24% water volume.

At these percentages it is hard to imagine that either mediums could be over watered when used well graded and at 100%. Within 15 minutes of watering both these mediums are in the optimum water to air ratio. Yet from these results the diatomite would be superior as it has more water storage and would stay in this optimum water air ratio longer!

Oh and two hours later the weight of the mediums has stayed constant showing that the drainage found it's balance of water tension to gravity within 15 mins of watering.

This got me thinking Brett, and also our comment about having a glass jar with holes in it.
I grabbed a 1250ml coke bottle ( leftover from Pizza and Scotch last night ), And drilled some holes in the bottom, filled it with my Mt Sylvia Diatomite and left the lid off
Weighed it at 530 Grams ( empty Bottle was 30g or so).
Soaked it in water for an hour or so went I went out, and then stood on a bench for 1 hr to drain
Just weighed it now and the total weight is 1075 g

From My test here seems that my Diatomite will hold it own weight in water ?

We will have to wait for Grant to do some different tests.

Ken

[Bretts]

I was thinking how silly I was after wanting a glass contianer with holes and thought a plastic cup would be an esay solution
Was there any pooling in the bottom of the bottle after it drianed?

[kcpoole]

I was thinking how silly I was after wanting a glass contianer with holes and thought a plastic cup would be an esay solution
Was there any pooling in the bottom of the bottle after it drianed?

Nope not really that i could see. It was a bit dark outside so will check again when I do it again.
I will weight it every arvo this week then will wet again and see

Ken

[kcpoole]

Ps i forgot to add, the Diatomite was not washed or graded / sifted, so it jsut as it came out of the bag

Ken

[NBPCA]

Just did a test on zeolite and diatomite.
Used 100mm (500ml) nursery pots full of medium.
I graded the medium as best I could but the diatomite was slightly larger.
Zeolite dry weight 680g Diatomite dry weight 398g
Waterd each medium with 1L of water through a fine rose watering can and any that drained out was collected.
After 15 mins
Zeolite wet 755g (75g increase) Diatomite wet 524g (126g increase)
Shortly after I measured the collected run of from each pot and found that the Zeolite medium had absorbed 60ml the Diatomite had absorbed 120ml
This means the zeolite pot now holds about 12.5% water volume and the Diatomite holds about 24% water volume.

At these percentages it is hard to imagine that either mediums could be over watered when used well graded and at 100%. Within 15 minutes of watering both these mediums are in the optimum water to air ratio. Yet from these results the diatomite would be superior as it has more water storage and would stay in this optimum water air ratio longer!

Oh and two hours later the weight of the mediums has stayed constant showing that the drainage found it's balance of water tension to gravity within 15 mins of watering.

This got me thinking Brett, and also our comment about having a glass jar with holes in it.
I grabbed a 1250ml coke bottle ( leftover from Pizza and Scotch last night ), And drilled some holes in the bottom, filled it with my Mt Sylvia Diatomite and left the lid off
Weighed it at 530 Grams ( empty Bottle was 30g or so).
Soaked it in water for an hour or so went I went out, and then stood on a bench for 1 hr to drain
Just weighed it now and the total weight is 1075 g

From My test here seems that my Diatomite will hold it own weight in water ?

We will have to wait for Grant to do some different tests.

Ken

Part of my testing will be to grow Ash seedlings in various mixes as well with Osmocote added/not added etc.

Will need the Maidenwell diatomite to flesh out the test and if you can get it to Leigh this weekend that would be great.

Grant

[kcpoole]

No Worries grant
How much do you need? I was going to send a small bucket down
I have "Mt Sylvia" Diatomite not Maidenwell. The only difference I can see is the colour

Ken

[NBPCA]

No Worries grant
How much do you need? I was going to send a small bucket down
I have "Mt Sylvia" Diatomite not Maidenwell. The only difference I can see is the colour

Ken

Hi,

A bucket sized bag of Mt Sylvia" would be great.

Maybe I could get Leigh to go To Enfield Produce and pick up the Maidenwell from their if that is what they stock.

Some product varies in texture, size, hardness even from wherer they dig it in the quarry/sand bed. etc

Grant

[senseijames]

G’day all, what are the thoughts on the following:... we know that Diatomite, and the other types of media, can hold anything up to their own weight in water, so therefore when you feed your Bonsai with nutrients, naturally the media is going to absorb the nutrient also and hold it, so I am wondering how long it would stay absorbed in the media before the plant has used it up or has been diluted by watering, do we think that the nutrient is going to eventually build up to the point of being like an overdose of fertilizer, of course naturally we supposedly water our plants a short time just before we feed them, so this may dilute the nutrient to a certain extent, I also want to bring up another point regarding nutrient feeding rates so I shall open another post regarding that, rather than taking this forum off track.
So what are your thoughts on nutrient absorption ???
James