Is my Hornbeam too Tall

[craigw60]

Brett when growing bonsai you need to understand compromise, we are not dealing with a canvas or lump of clay from which we cam mould whatever we like. Every tree is going to have faults somewhere. its the nature of what we deal with. With regards to your hornbeam I would continue to grow and ramify the branches, but at the same time develop some other trees which may not have the problems this one does.
Craig

[Mojo Moyogi]

Hi Brett,
no, your hornbeam is not too tall. I agree with Craig here, you should probably leave the trunk alone and grow the branches and take the lessons learned and apply the trunk shaping principles that he has suggested in your trees in the future. It is a very time consuming process to rebuild a convincing trunk line when the trunk is so thick in comparison to the available new leader.

If it was a Trident, then yes by all means tear into it.

With this tree, you will find that the shortcomings of the trunk will diminish over time as you develop the branches.

A couple of things that I have noticed. The branches are distinctly up on the RHS and down on the LHS, I hope that is temporary, because it may cause issues with balance. I am not sure about the hole you have carved in the trunk, but I will openly admit that I am as a rule, not in favour of carving deciduous trees in the first place.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Bretts]

Ok we have about 1 in 4(15 no and 5 yes) that say they would chop it down. Only one that has explained where or why. Some have stated that they would have gone lower if they could turn back time.
I have little doubt where I am heading with this tree these days and that it will work. Call me whatever but this was to learn about you not me learning how to style a tree. Yet I did not doubt that something some one suggested would be helpful.
I am very much in agreement with what Mela has siad

I'd gradually reduce the height a bit but not drastically and I definitely would not have it any taller.

and I am surprised that others only considered a major chop or to leave be!
To me the very top of the tree at least is too tall. Apart from being a tall weird looking section it is also obviously new growth. I would have chopped this section earlier if I could have made up my mind where.
The fact is I chopped the very top section not too long after this picture was taken and started to grow a new leader last season. Much as is shown here.

010.jpg

Edit: this picture is a slightly different angle but too slack to re-do!

Why I asked for opinions on the height was because I showed a picture of this tree to an accomplished nurseryman and I stated that I thought it needed to be reduced a bit. They said it was fine as is. So I was expecting at least experienced members to tell me to at least reduce the very top of the tree.
Then I could say hey it may not just be the beginner's as an experienced nurseryman told it it was fine at this height!


As I stated I did not doubt that there was something for me to learn here and I did but more of that soon

[bodhidharma]

Brett when growing bonsai you need to understand compromise, we are not dealing with a canvas or lump of clay from which we cam mould whatever we like. Every tree is going to have faults somewhere. its the nature of what we deal with. With regards to your hornbeam I would continue to grow and ramify the branches, but at the same time develop some other trees which may not have the problems this one does.
Craig

I agree with Craig on this one Bretts the only comment i would add that it does need more branches. There are a couple of spots on the tree that could be improved with a branch grafted on. This would make it a bit crowded when in leaf but would look sensational in Winter.

[Bretts]

At first I was fence sitting, then I was thinking nah it's fine, it'll fill out - but I've come back to have another look (with one eye shut of course )
I do see benefit with the top chopped back and think there's more to offer with the growth concentrated on thickening those lower branches and greater width.. but - I image the foliage pads with the current height would look sensational too - I suppose are you after a great winter tree or not.. so I guess I'm back to sitting on the damn fence LOL

btw ^^ That's where I see the chop in the edited picture.

If we chopped here Anja we really don't accomplish anything. This is the point of a previous chop. Maybe you see the problem of the change of bark texture that draws you here. This can't be solved by a chop at this point again! Although I think a chop slightly higher does help trick the eye some over the texture change being now the very top of the tree it makes more sense to be younger wood and in time it will mature!

[Bretts]

Brett when growing bonsai you need to understand compromise, we are not dealing with a canvas or lump of clay from which we cam mould whatever we like. Every tree is going to have faults somewhere. its the nature of what we deal with. With regards to your hornbeam I would continue to grow and ramify the branches, but at the same time develop some other trees which may not have the problems this one does.
Craig

I agree with Craig on this one Bretts the only comment i would add that it does need more branches. There are a couple of spots on the tree that could be improved with a branch grafted on. This would make it a bit crowded when in leaf but would look sensational in Winter.

As we all know the trick is to turn fualts into features or hide them. If that is not possible you are wasting your time It either works or it doesn't.

Edit:

There are a couple of spots on the tree that could be improved with a branch grafted on. This would make it a bit crowded when in leaf but would look sensational in Winter.

I have a thread graft in place that I had considerd for a while. For some reason I did this late in the season. Lets hope it makes the winter. But I am getting a little ahead of myself.

[Pup]

Brett we are all considering this tree from what you have designated as the front, is it possible to give us four shots your front left right back. That way we can see what you have and have dismissed.

I did say it needs growing out so the branches thicken and we get more of them. There might be some possible thread grafts, to help position the branches better.

Just some thoughts I still think the height is OK and the ratio is very close to John.Y. Naka's teachings, as well as a lot of other Master's.

Cheers Pup

[Bretts]

Fair point Pup. If anyone remembers Since the original styling of this tree I have debated whether to use this front or the carved out front. I will show all sides of the tree soon but for the purposes of this thread for now I would rather stick to this front as we know how side tracked these threads can get
Please humour me for a little

[kcpoole]

Bretts
I woud love to chop it an regrow the top, but in reality It would take too long. to do it in a reasonable time it woud have to go into a big pot or the ground and that may well put on more girth around the bottom which I do not really like.
Having a second look I see there is a hole in it in that section.
A possibility would be to carve out the heartwood inside and bend it to the right at that point.
This would make the upper trunk section of this look somewhat different, and thus negate the need to reduce this section anyway.

Ken

[Bretts]

To me the ratio rule is not a rule or a guideline. It is simply a tool to use. The ratio rule is written a certain way but to me it was always taught and makes sense from my studies that 1:6 is an average stature tree. Lower than this and you are getting a masculine solid image. Higher than this and it tends to be a more graceful image.
The hornbeam featured at it's present height is about 1:7. A pretty respectful ratio in the scheme of things and but the image I want to portray is of an ancient grumpy old tree with deadwood. It does not have to be overly masculine but I think the story makes sense if it leans to the side of masculine.
So I know it is definitely not going to hurt if I reduce the height more. The next question I ask myself is can I reduce the height.

The point that I have chosen now gives me a height of about 1:5. Now my plot is set

[Bretts]

Bretts
I woud love to chop it an regrow the top, but in reality It would take too long. to do it in a reasonable time it woud have to go into a big pot or the ground and that may well put on more girth around the bottom which I do not really like.
Having a second look I see there is a hole in it in that section.
A possibility would be to carve out the heartwood inside and bend it to the right at that point.
This would make the upper trunk section of this look somewhat different, and thus negate the need to reduce this section anyway.

Ken

You may have been more right than you realise in the first instance KC. Why do you think that scar is thier More on that later

[bonsai4life]

I'll leave itup to you Bretts....

if you think it'd be easier to post up to me chop it
if you can post it how it is that woud be great too

but yeah I think i looks good how it is

Cheers
Gott

[kcpoole]

Just a quickie virt to give an idea of my second idea

Thoughts?

Ken

[bonzaidog]

Hey Bretts...just a simple move to improve the trees appearance would be to change up the potting angle to the right a bit,..looks sorta unbalanced as is....one more thing,have you considered an air layer at the first bend area? I'm not qualified to make calls on height ratios just yet, but it might be an option to get the trunk taper looking better...i'm just hopping outside the square for a bit...Cheers.. ....Dog.

[Bretts]

This is where things took a bit of a turn today. I had some difficulty selecting where to reduce the height of this tree and create a new leader in that top section. There where a couple of obvious branches that where a good size but they where heading in a direction I did not like. Being a hornbeam I did not think they would move enough. I ended up biting the bullet and decided on a fairly young shoot as indicated on the mud map. As we know a little turn here or there can make a big difference and as I stated back in spring last year when I posted this I was sure this would go through a few before I was happy. I was going back through old pictures of this tree and I came across a virtual that some one did for me a few years ago when I was thinking of which pot to use. In fact now I see all the pot virts where of this angle.

hornbeam bugs bonsai virtf.jpg

You can see the leader was even longer back then!
Although it takes movement away from the straight section in the middle it gives nice movement coming out of the ground which I think can be more important. It improves the root base which may not be obvious in the original picture but it is dominated by a large root on the right. And it seemed to give me the opportunity to use the lowest branch on the left of the very top section. This was to level and unmovable at the other angle.
Checked on the tree and I think this is very do-able.

hornbeam bugs bonsai virt1.jpg

This is lacking some of the branch thickness and stuff of the first image but I hope you get the idea.
I think this is a big improvement on the long section on the first image we started with.