Experiment- A break down of Tetra / enteric coated seeds

[Mitchell]

Thought I would post my results, in an attempt to propagate Lilly Pilly seeds.
I would imagine this may also apply to figs etc.
What prompted me was trying to increase propagation success and to accelerate the process.

At my workplace I have a massive LP which has shead 1000's of fruit. The fruit has been covered for several months now with soil, some are still on the surface, yet none have begun to germinate. On inspection no others have germinated and grown under this massive tree.
I asked myself why they have never germinated, in my limited knowledge I could only assume, the fruit under the tree was knocked off, whilst the seeds that germinate are ones relocated by wildlife, entering their stomachs and having their Tetra layer (outer protective layer) removed by acids. Following this I would assume the now prepped seed, is deposited with a nice little packaging of nitrogen.

I was asked to shovel the dirt away from the area and clean up. I managed to take the bags of soil home, with the 1000's of seeds in them.

This is my attempt at replicating, what would happen in nature if the fruit was eaten. I know a simple way is to leave them in water for a week, yet I wanted to get the ball rolling and possibly get a better success rate.

The batches are a mixture of seed taken from all stages of the fruit decomposiotion cycle. As long as the seed was firm I removed it from the fruit, I also took from the soil seeds where the fruit had released it completely.

Each batch consisted of 50 seeds.

Batch 1- Seeds were placed in cold water, then manipulated by hand vigorously. They were agitated in such a manner as to damage the outer coating. This process was continued for 10 minutes until I was sure significant damage had occured.
Reason- To see if it is a simple degredation of the coating done in the stomach, which causes germination.

Batch 2- Seeds were placed in hot water from the tap, then manipulated by hand vigorously. They were agitated in such a manner as to damage the outer coating. This process was continued for 10 minutes until I was sure significant damage had occured.
Reason- To see if the internal heat from the animal, accelerates the process.

Batch3- Seeds were placed in hot water from the tap, then manipulated by hand vigorously. They were agitated in such a manner as to damage the outer coating. This process was continued for 10 minutes until I was sure significant damage had occured. They were then dried under a lamp, for ten mintues getting up to around 45 degrees celcius. This process was repeated several times.
Reason- To see if the seeds react to loosing their coating, then receiving a simulation of being dried by the sun.

Batch 4- Seeds were placed in hot water from the tap, then manipulated by hand vigorously. After this they had their outer coating peeled away, revealing the green fleshy insides.
Reason- To determine if the tetra coating needs to be removed completely

Batch 5- Seeds were placed in hot water from the tap, then placed in the microwave for 10 secs.
Reason- To expose them to extreme conditions

Batch 6- Seeds were left untouched, in the state I found them.
Reason- A stable example of non processed seed

Batch 7- Seeds were placed in cold water and left for the week, as per the normal process.
Reason- To have a reference of the normal proceedure


All seeds were then placed on / in the same medium and left in a warm location to see what happened. The seeds in water are still waiting the week.



The experiment started on the 11/03/10.

I will update shortly on the progression. Please don't assume I think I am some type of germination wizz kid, just couldn't find much on Google or here for that matter, so I thought I would try and contribute. I still have hundreds more seeds, so if there are any special requests in regards to processing the seed, let me know and I will try it for you.

Anyone care to take a punt on which germinated?

[Mitchell]

Observations for today-

Batch 2,3,5 have all germinated well. 90% of the seeds in each batch have several strong roots appearing.

Batch 1 has several beginning to germinate.

Other batches have no signs of germination.

It would seem at a preliminary observation, that perhaps heat maybe a factor in the tetra coatings degredation.

The picture shows the general state of seeds in batches 2,3,5.
I am very pleased to see them come up, especially the micro-waved one.

[Mitchell]

Batches 2,3 and 5 are all still growing strongly.

Batch 7 in which the seeds were placed in water for a week, have shooted yet are only 1/4 the height of the other batches.
Batch 3 in which the seeds were agitated in hot water then dried under a lamp, would appear to contain the most vigorous growth.

After several re-counts 99 if not 100%, of seeds in Batch 3 germinated.



There were also hundreds of fruit / seeds left still in the soil, in the garbage bags. At the beginning of the experiment, they had not germinated. Since then I have kept the soil moist in the bags and the tops closed. All remainding seeds are germinating in the bags now and have shown a higher rate of root development than the experiment batches. These seeds will now be included in the experiment, to determine if their growth under such conditions in the bags, makes it a more viable germination proceedure than the test results show.

Too early to start putting movement into them?

[kcpoole]

Nice work Mitchell

Be interested to see if there is any differences after time

Would you also be interested in doing some experiments with different potting mixes over time too?

Ken

[Scott Roxburgh]

You're a Champ Mitchell!

This is the type of content that we all should be trying to add and can only make this site more useful for everyone!

Great work!

...now to think of what my contribution to Ausbonsai could be???

[Mitchell]

Ken, I do not think there will be any "difference", just a week head start on the traditional, leave in water technique.

Now that I have established some results from the initial experiment, yes I would be interested in conducting a test on mediums.
The seedlings are due to be repotted soon, or they will tangle their roots, I planted them 1cm apart thinking most wouldn't come up, they all did.
Any suggestions on mediums to use?


Scott, thanks for your comment mate, haven't had much responce so far so it is appreciated.

[kcpoole]

5 in Diatomite
5 in Akadama
5 in Rays mix


Ken

[Mitchell]

I was at work the other day, still no seeds had germenated under the massive LP tree. I had to smile about my successful batch at home, growing well. I am still a bit confused about why none come up when just dropped from the tree.

Not sure what i'm going to do with them all. Any early training suggestions?

[chipper5]

Great work- what a fantastic experiment!

Thanks for this excellent info- I have a very tall LP in my backyard of the house I have moved into recently. It had heaps of fruit but same as your work tree, NONE has germinated under it. I am keen to collect it now and try some of your methods to propagate it to increase my bonsai collection!

[Mitchell]

Thanks mate! I also had great success adding the fruit whole, into a bag full of damp soil. Tie the top closed to keep it moist, in a few weeks the fruit will decompose, which releases moisture that deteriorates the coating of the seed. When the coating breaks down all seeds will germinate in the bag and I do mean all, so be careful. I literally have hundreds growing, as I accidentally contaminated my clean mix with about a 200 seeds, which in turn got used to plant out stock bonsai trees.
Funny how I was having trouble propping them, now their like weeds in my yard.

[Jamie]

hi mate,

It looks like you are gonna have that many you can do a few fused style trees like the tridents that were the flavour of the day last sunday

[Mitchell]

A couple of the trays I planted out too closely, instead of re-planting and thinning out I inter-twined 3 or four surrounding each other together. When the bunches of four fuse I'll use them to fuse larger trunks. Same as the normal method I guess, but hopefully the fused seedlings will produce more flavor to the trunk than just single seedlings on a form etc..

Oh well, when life gives you copious seedlings, you fuse them.

[pommie_mal]

I was at work the other day, still no seeds had germenated under the massive LP tree. I had to smile about my successful batch at home, growing well. I am still a bit confused about why none come up when just dropped from the tree.

I remember reading somewhere that most species of trees produce a chemical in the soil that prevents it's own seeds from germinating under the parent tree. Very logical if you think about it as the parent tree wouldn't want dozens of seedlings competing for nutrients & moisture in the parent tree's root zone.

[Mitchell]

I was at work the other day, still no seeds had germenated under the massive LP tree. I had to smile about my successful batch at home, growing well. I am still a bit confused about why none come up when just dropped from the tree.

I remember reading somewhere that most species of trees produce a chemical in the soil that prevents it's own seeds from germinating under the parent tree. Very logical if you think about it as the parent tree wouldn't want dozens of seedlings competing for nutrients & moisture in the parent tree's root zone.

"I managed to take the bags of soil home, with the 1000's of seeds in them."

"There were also hundreds of fruit / seeds left still in the soil, in the garbage bags. At the beginning of the experiment, they had not germinated. Since then I have kept the soil moist in the bags and the tops closed. All remaining seeds are germinating in the bags now and have shown a higher rate of root development than the experiment batches."


Seems not to run true with LP, as the soil they germinated in is from around the tree. Interesting though.

[pommie_mal]

Strange isn't it. The seeds under the parent tree haven't germinated yet the seeds in the bag have. Might have something to do with the warmth & moisture inside the bag causing some kind of reaction??
Nature is very complex.