Should all groups be the same tree..Japanese Maple group.

[bodhidharma]

I have heard this debated in many circles and on this particular group displayed at my place. "but they are not the same Type"
I have done this deliberately on this group of Maples totally for Autumn colour. This is the Spring foliage, but in Autumn the larger trees go vivid red and the background becomes orange yellow . For discussion..i know trees of a totally different species should not really be grouped together,but i have seen this done, but can different hybrids of the same species be grouped together. E.G junipers Sargentii and, say, Squamata. E.G Chinese Elms and corky bark elms. It does occur in Nature as i have seen it. We definitely get different Euc's in Australia. What think you all

[Jamie]

hi mate

honestly I cant see why different cultivars cant be used in the same setting, it happens in nature all the time, especially here in Aus. euc. mels. casuarina. just to name a few!

I used to have a tonka truck as a kid too I first thought it was part of the setting but soon reallised it wasnt a loggin truck

[bodhidharma]

hi mate

honestly I cant see why different cultivars cant be used in the same setting, it happens in nature all the time, especially here in Aus. euc. mels. casuarina. just to name a few!

I used to have a tonka truck as a kid too I first thought it was part of the setting but soon reallised it wasnt a loggin truck

I love Tonka trucks When i saw it in the shot i just went..ah well..good size comparison thats my story and i am sticking to it

[Bougy Fan]

I think whatever floats you boat and looks good to you. The only think I do find a bit disconcerting is the size difference between the colours - would like to see some of the green leaves a larger size similar to the red. In my opinion the larger red leaf varieties make it look a little contrived. If they were all varying heights it would look a little more natural.

[Pup]

There are plenty of examples in books and magazine of different species in groups. The main reason for not doing it as often as single species is because of cultivation requirements.

Not being aware that the requirements of the two cultivars being that different I cannot see a problem. Trees that grow in the same area are not the same under cultivation.
As is proved when you put a tree in the ground to fatten it up. It receives or should the same as it does in a pot, but it grows quicker in the ground.

I have just been looking for an example, I found one in the book by the late Saburo Kato.
Forest, Rock Planting & Ezo Spruce Bonsai ISBN 0-9704392-3-7
Now put out by Bill Valavanis.
On page 19 a mixed forest style on a slab about 30 years old when the book was first published, which was in 1963, consists of Maple Beech Stewartia Azalea Hornbeam, there were two types of Maple Palmatum and Deshojo. As we all know this man was a big name in Bonsai.

So I would say enjoy it Bohdi I just did thanks.
Cheers Pup

Edit PS in Bonsai today page 20 there are a number of forest plantings, one of a mixed group consisting of deciduous and coniferous tree's with a caption, ( quote be very careful about planting different species in the same container, as cultivation problems multiply with varying requirements of each species. It is very difficult to achieve a natural appearance with a composition such as this end quote ).

[Mojo Moyogi]

Hi Bodhi, I would love to see pictures of this tree in autumn colour if you have any. This is an excellent and timely topic that you have brought up.

I have had a noticeable change in the way I think about bonsai in the past 12 months. I have recently seen a few excellent group plantings that have, in part, influenced my decision to do things a little better.

For myself, I would prefer to use a single species, but from a bonsai appreciation point of view, I can't really say I care either way. If the composition works in regards to having a pleasing form and sense of naturalistic beauty, the species used don't clash with one another or impede each other's design value or seasonal appeal, then mixing species could well be acceptable.

Different cultivars in the one group might be more of a challenge than completely seperate species. If for instance, you were to group Chinese Elm and Corky Bark Elm, I know where I would be looking, I doubt if at any time during the year Chinese Elm has any visual attribute that it superior to Corky Bark, when viewed side by side.

I think the focus of seasonal interest would need to flow back and forth between the different species/cultivars throughout the year for the group to work visually. Perhaps by grouping evergreens with deciduous, the above would be easier to achieve? Other considerations would be that the horticultural requirements of each species/cultivar is likely to be different, which would require some management.

Now from a critical standpoint and speaking largely about show quality bonsai, but applicable to trees of all levels. What concerns me a little is that very few groups put together in Australia work visually anyway, despite the fact that to grow excellent tree material for groups is comparitively easier than with any of the single tree styles. If it were widely accepted that multiple species groups are ok, would that not further complicate the process of achieving a visually pleasing bonsai form, given that it appears the majority of Australians growing bonsai either lack the skills or knowledge to create high quality groups, or are not motivated to.

The notion that many popular western bonsai authors would have us believe, that good (potentially great) bonsai group plantings can be knocked together from a handfull of newly purchased nursery stock in an afternoon is a myth.

Bodhi, this subject is definitely worthy of some debate, I'm interested to see what other readers think.

Cheers,
Mojo

P.S.
I started writing this post before Pup posted his, he has brought up a couple of points that I have also mentioned here, my apologies for the repetition, but I didn't want to re-write my comments.

[benny350]

I don't see why it should matter, especially with Aussie natives. I dont see the 'rules' as rules more as guidelines, if we all followed the same rules we would all end up with similar trees and where's the fun in that. I'd love to see an Aussie native group planting and might just have a go myself

[bodhidharma]

Thanks for the Excellent replies Folks. This thread came about because of my Japanese visit and the groups that i saw were astounding.

Pup..can you post some of those pictures of groups that you have, if it is at all possible.

Moj..thanks for wading into the debate with insight. I agree totally with your comments. When you witness a group that has age and has been designed with a skilled hand it staggers your senses. That was my experience when i went to Japan as i had never seen anything like that before. Instead of being intimidated i was inspired to create something like that.I reckon it can be achievable but we must begin with correct knowledge and skill and foresight. The group here, which some people marvel over when they see it, will be broken apart next winter and developed separately for the next 5-10 years and then put back together into the same format and then developed as a group for a further time so they meld together . I have to agree that Australian Bonsai lacks credible groups (with some exceptions being those displayed at the Canberra exhibition.) and i think we need to rise to the challenge. I saw some amazing juniper groups with different cultivars but they blended beautifully.

[bodhidharma]

I don't see why it should matter, especially with Aussie natives. I dont see the 'rules' as rules more as guidelines, if we all followed the same rules we would all end up with similar trees and where's the fun in that. I'd love to see an Aussie native group planting and might just have a go myself

Thanks for the input Benny. I didnt mention rules as i dont think there are any on this category and the "rules" subject can get out of hand Please, go your hardest, i have yet to see a world class aussie native group planting.I am not saying they dont exist i just have not seen one.

[Mojo Moyogi]

Bodhi, one of the things that is widely practiced in Japan and overlooked a lot in the west is the practice of training trees in sub-groups with a view to assembling a larger number of trees into a group the future. When I do eventually make it over to Japan, aside from wearing my usual "Shohin Goggles", I plan to try and see some of Hiroshi Takeyama's trees. His work with deciduous groups is outstanding, growing and training nursery stock for 20 years in preparation for a larger composition is a staggering comitment, especially by western standards, but the results speak for themselves http://www.bonsai-wbff.org/article3ht.shtml

Cheers,
Mojo

P.S. at the risk of opening a can of worms (insert smilie depicting cheeky grin),the "rules" have been proven to achieve excellent trees, many bonsai professionals have expanded on, bent and smashed the "rules" to bits and achieved wonderful bonsai, but not without a thorough theoretical and practical understanding of the basic concepts of bonsai design. Kimura, who is probably the most innovative Bonsai Master ever, has reworked trees beautifully into traditional styles, a Formal Upright Japanese White Pine in Bonsai Today #80 is a prime example. It disappoints me that a some of the "anti rules" bonsai growers and the subsequent new styles that are offered by them as a result of going against the "rule book" are born of frustration by people who believe they will never have great trees by following traditional styling.

Diversity in bonsai is a product of what we see as individuals and how we assemble our drastically different visions into built forms.

[craigw60]

My preference is for uniformity in a group, I like groups where the whole canopy forms one and I think you need the same leaf structure to achieve that. I have seen a very few groups made up of different tree species which I think have worked, to achieve this would require some skill and a experience.
Craigw

[Guy]

interesting exercise-I would like to see its development over time--Visually I think the different colours and growth habits make the mixing difficult as an overall setting and tend to divide rather than gel.I would probably see it as two groups in one pot

[Pup]

G,day again , Bohdi I do not have a scanner, so the only way, is to take a picture and see how that turns out re posting.

So I will try later today, wish me luck, cheers Pup

[Pup]

Thought I had better do this before I forgot and got to busy. So here they are I hope they come out well they seemed OK in photoshop.

Cheers Pup

P1100807.JPG

P1100809.JPG

P1100810.JPG

[bodhidharma]

Thanks for that effort Pup. Some requests are not easy, sorry. Again it is obvious to me that AGE is the one difference between Aussie trees and landscapes compared to our overseas counterparts. As a tree ages and ramifies it starts to look the part. It is not that Aussies are not talented (because i believe we are) we just have not been around long enough to produce a century old tree or landscape. If i use my imagination and add twenty or thirty years to this group defoliating regularly and grooming correctly it to will be a winner. One of the answers i got from a Japanese Nursery when i commented on a tree that had some reverse taper was..so what, it is two hundred years old. What can you say to that as the tree was stunning My group, in hindsight, looks quite immature. And there lies the problem. I think most things in Bonsai will work, as Pups photos show, when the trees have age on there side.