Wisteria branch structure

[Bretts]

I am feeling pretty pleased with myself for finding a new spot for my two wisteria while trying to open up my full sun area. I just didn't think of this spot before.
I separated them out of their recovery pot last Spring as shown here

viewtopic.php?f=129&t=6016&p=72776&hili ... ria#p72776

Now I can see them clearly again I am back to wondering about branch structure.
I understand we should aim for showing of the cascading flowers but I am unsure on the best branch structure to accomplish this. Any advice would be appreciated. Maybe you know of some bare leaf wisteria pics to consider?

Here are some pics of my wisteria today. I have done nothing in the way of styling. Only trimming back at repot and yesterday (also opening out as best I could) to a manageable size.

wist.jpg

wist2.jpg

wist3.jpg

wist4.jpg

wist5.jpg

wist6.jpg

[bodhidharma]

First and foremost Bretts..Nice cubby house Now back to the subject, the problem i see is that they are way to leggy. As they are so slow to develop ramification and look so good when in flower we are loathe to cut them back HARD. I had the same quandary with my large one and have now reduced it to three trees and have cut them back hard. So, you have the decision of.. let it flower or cut it back hard, probably back to the first offshoot and develop ramification for the next ten or so years I have a Cascade i have been developing for about 5 years and it is coming along nicely. I can post a piccy if you like a little bit later.

[Bretts]

Thanks Bodi
I have decided that I am happy to cut all branches back to stumps if need be as I think the time regrowing will be worth it. I can see the buds there ready to come out. I left as much branch as feasible to encourage lots of growth after the root reduction to go into these pots. So next chop will be with a plan. But I am looking for a plan before I cut.
I have not considered the branch structure of good wisteria before so I thought If I think about it till next spring I should be right to go. Not worried about flowers yet.

Thanks I am proud of the kids Cubby. This is mark II. The first one was bigger and looked more like a sun room than a cubby

[bodhidharma]

Sorry, it took a little while to find. I have been trimming this one hard and have let it flower only once (to see the colour) and have done an Aerial layer of it. Not rocket science, feed the hell out of it, they like any fertilizer it seems just lots of it but i am sure you know that. cut it back hard after the flowers are 60% out, or take of all the flowers as they appear and then prune it. as the tendrils extend they should be chopped to. Again, i have seen great examples O.S but not here. Time, time, time.

[soda]

+1 cubby. Inside out slide...genius!

[Bretts]

Thanks a bunch Bodi. Cascades are much harder to find than I expected but it seems the branches go any which way to give the most advantage of showing the flowers so that makes things easy. I like the way yours is going.
I have been giving mine plenty of fert but I read that is not the best thing to do when after flowers. Other information suggests cutting them back several times a year the last and hardest being in Mid Winter States only needs protection if temps drop below -5 deg so I guess I should give it the major chop to style then.

Thanks Soda. Not sure it is a ground breaking idea but no one believed me that would work and as usual I didn't listen.

[Ron]

Brett,

I've been following this Wisteria discussion on Bonsai Nut which might be of interest to you:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4808

Cheers,
Ron

[Bretts]

Thanks Ron some great info there.

[Dwi]

Yes, way too leggy and doesn't have much going for it at the moment. I would agree with Bodhidharma - cut it right back hard and re-grow. Then when it does re-shoot, keep it more under control.

[MattA]

Hey Brett,

These two are going to be great with a few years dedicated growing & training. Very unique & interesting trunklines, I really like the first one, it reminds me of a stone formation with a few trees growing off it, nice tight branchs with lots of movement like Bodhi's stunner would look fantastic. The shorter racemes of sinensis means you only really need 15-20cm hanging space. I really want to see more of the trunk on the cascade, maybe even upside down but still with cascading branches

I am currently trying to make some long term decisions regarding branch structure for my big old wisteria dug last spring. I have been doing alot of observation on this one as well as reading & experimenting with scrap stock. Theres a couple of things to consider when working with wisteria and older vines in particular. Its taken me a few days but wanted the photo's to help explain it easier..

R0015135.jpg

Wisteria are a vine & have very distinct live veins running thru them, its part of what makes a vine so strong yet thin. When these veins are cut, if there is no regrowth to continue to draw energy into that section it dies back to the strongest parts, such as yours did. Rot can be quick or slow depending on many factors.. moisture the most crucial.

R0015110.jpg

If you want to reduce larger branches (over 1-2cm dia) do so in stages or induce backbudding behind where you want to make the cut, allow these to grow a season untouched then make your cut the following spring. This ensures a live vein to continue feeding the branch & if the tree is strong will trigger yet more dormant buds further back along the branch or anywhere along the whole vein right back to the roots. It can also trigger suckers to help compensate & balance the energy flows if needed ensure the core lives on.

R0015126.jpg

Rot is a natural part of the Wisteria's life cycle, even tihn wood 1cm or so will rot out when veins are severed at either end. They can act as a straw & draw moisture into the wood. the one I have has extensive shari & completely hollow sections of trunk, yet it is strong & vigourous. It also came with its own family of black ants that help to eat the rot & keep it under control, they only eat rotten wood not solid timber.

R0015111.jpg

The main bits I have gleamed from Peter's book about pruning is to let the branches extend until they have the form you want & then trim new runners back to the first 6 leaf sets when they have extended about 6-8ft to help encourage the vine to branch & encourage production of more flower spurs than runners. Allow any new growth in the autmn to grow freely then prune back to flower buds mid-late winter. Any heavy pruning should be restricted to the spring immediately after flowering as the new seasons growth is getting underway. Pretty much the same that is stated by Brian Van Fleet on the Bonsai nut forum. I would also agree with him regarding feeding and general care etc for mature flowering vines.


Bodhi, what a stunning cascade, i couldnt have cut it in half like you did but it looks even better now. One question. . How do you stop your vines from flowering This one of mine hasnt been without a bloom since november, I hate having to prune runners because it just triggers more buds to burst forth.

Matt

[Bretts]

Some intresting thoughts there Matt thanks for taking the time to lay that out.
You have a ripper there it wil be great to exchange notes on developing from this stage.

First up I think I will reduce the branches but not all the way. I would hate to start the die back agian.

[pjkatich]

G'day Brett,

If you don't mind, I'll throw in my two cents worth here.

For wisteria, branch structure should be set up to maximize viewing of the flowers and nothing else.

Here is a photo of one of my wisteria that I have shown on this forum before. This photo was taken in March of last year.

IMG_0003a.jpg

Here is a current photo of the tree showing the branch structure.

Wisteria 1.jpg

Leggy growth is a normal part of growing wisteria. You need to incorporate that into your design.

In these discussion, I read a great deal about cutting a wisteria back hard every year. In my opinion that is a mistake. If your wisteria is flowering and you cut it back hard you are going to retard the plants flowering potential and encourage the rank, vegetative growth.

The trick is not in how hard you cut the wisteria back, it is in how you cut the spent racemes off the plant.

Try the following technique on your wisteria and I think you will see a big difference in how they respond.

wisteria bud 1.jpg

wisteria bud 2.jpg

wisteria bud 3.jpg

wisteria bud 4.jpg

Using this technique you can double your flower production from year to year. Another additional benefit is that this seems to satisfy the plants need to produce those pesky tendrils.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Paul

[bodhidharma]

Bodhi, what a stunning cascade, i couldnt have cut it in half like you did but it looks even better now. One question. . How do you stop your vines from flowering This one of mine hasnt been without a bloom since november, I hate having to prune runners because it just triggers more buds to burst forth.

Matt[/quote]

Hi Matt, i dont stop it flowering per say, merely cut the pods off when they appear on the bare wood. The energy saved goes into branch production or runner production which i keep trimmed. Thinking about it, it takes discipline to not let it flower. I have an excellent article which states.. you should cut off your flowers at 60% flowering which will increase next years flowering.

[Bretts]

Leggy growth is a normal part of growing wisteria. You need to incorporate that into your design.

Thanks for the advice Paul. I like the basic structure that is there at the moment so I think it is not a bad idea to keep pushing it back slowly over the next few years utilizing any advantageous buds as I go. Then see where that takes it.

Your Wisteria is looking great. I have been surprised by how few full cascades I have been able to find of Wisteria.