A few new pots

[Bretts]

DaleCochoy wrote:
BTW, I can't help but feel you are soon going to be sorry for giving out too many secrets to new potters
Read all the whining about wanting secrets!

I think I heard them calling you over at BN Dale. Thier handing over lots of information over there.

Just kidding. Glad to see you here

[Pat K]

I don't mind giving out techniques or help to established guys.

???????????

illegal sales by folks without a retail license,

No such thing as far as I'm concerned...or care! Does this mean I have to stop sending pots to your country?

have you tried the freeform one with different colour drips, maybe more drips

Hi Parron....that's your entry into Potters nirvana...enjoy!!!!

The colour is fine - very subtle

Not quite what I want Penny...but I do like it. Ta!!!

Thanks all
Pat

[DaleCochoy]

[quote="DaleCochoy"]I don't mind giving out techniques or help to established guys

???????????

I was pretty clear in my post. By established I meant someone who has actually made some pots and shown they are willing to study a bit and put out some work first.

DaleCochoy"]illegal sales by folks without a retail license
No such thing as far as I'm concerned...or care! Does this mean I have to stop sending pots to your country?

Send away Pat. Actually, I've sent a few to YOUR country....but then I claim the income on my taxes. Because I'm a legal business.

Brett said: "think I heard them calling you over at BN Dale. Thier handing over lots of information over there"

There ya go, free info without any work. Nothing to figure out. Right up your alley it seems.
D.

[Pat K]

Sorry Dale.....I regretted my last post as soon as I sent it.

We don't require a licence to sell our produce in Oz but we are required to pay taxes on earnings. We also pay a 10% GST tax on the purchase of all raw materials, including gas and/or electricity for the kiln.....nothing is free!!

Pat

[DaleCochoy]

Pat,
Is your system pretty similar to Canada? They have two taxes in each sale, one a GST.

In the USA we have to acquire a 'resale' vendors license to be legal. This license gives you the 'right' to collect sales tax on goods you sell, then you must pay that tax back to your state. For me it's semi-annual, but for huge companies it's monthly and possibly even bi-weekly. For instance, in my county I have to collect 6% sales tax on what I sell. Every county has different amounts from 5% to 8 1/2% I think. Some states really rock people. some don't have sales tax. It's all done by state, then by county. If I sell to other counties in my state ( OHIO) I have to charge that counties sales tax. This just started a couple years ago. Very confusing and a PIA. If I sell out of state I don't need to collect Ohio sales tax but I'm supposed to collect the tax where ever I sell and voluntarily pay it, unless I'm handed a 'one-time sales' tax packet. This is sometimes done at shows such as the Wash. DC Potomac show.
You also need a business license which is a number used for your FEDERAL USA INCOME TAX and also used for many things if you have employees ( which I don't. My dogs don't count! )
Most manufacturers of ANYTHING in the USA give you a wholesale price on goods which you aren't required to pay sales tax on because you are the manufacturer of goods. For instance, if I buy clay I get a wholesale price and pay no sales tax. But when I make something and sell it I collect sales tax and pay to state. The state makes out because they get more tax from a FINISHED product than the raw materials.
Your annual FEDERAL TAX ( yccch!) is computed on how much you gross after all your INS and OUTS.
We also pay tax on items like gas and electric, water, etc.
Soooo, I hope you can better understand my comments about having a legal business vs. competing with the guy who makes some pots at the community center then wants to sell them at a convention or eBay.
In some far distance future when Dale is "King", vendors , ALL VENDORS, at conventions will be required to have a legal business license for THEIR BONSAI BUSINESS or they won't be allowed to vend. I don't see a problem with sales people being required to be legal. If I go buy a car, whether at a dealer or a private person, I have to pay tax and it gets paid. Thats true of just about anyones business. I think even eBay will be having problems soon. The US treasury and state treasurys are missing out....a lot!
Only one time was I at an Ohio show and saw a tax person walking around picking up business cards. There coulda been trouble there if they wanted too. So often now I'd kinda LIKE to see a tax agent walking around picking up cards and question a few sellers!

When we did the Puerto Rico BCI show two years ago they had THREE agents in the vendor room every minute and THEY totaled all sales each day and collected the taxes at the end of the show. It was all run through Pedro Morales' business. Lots of hassle for him but not too much for us vendors. I wonder how they'll be handling it at this years WORLD SHOW at the same site.

Dale

[Bretts]

There ya go, free info without any work. Nothing to figure out. Right up your alley it seems.

Yes the info is free just like all the other info on the forums. The work starts when I get on the wheel. I find it hard to take complaints that simple information like this is a threat to your busininess.

[Pat K]

competing with the guy who makes some pots at the community center then wants to sell them at a convention or eBay.

Dale, I suppose the challenge for you (and me) is to make better pots than the person just starting and to keep improving.
There are many on this forum beginning to make pots but I figure that they are no better at pottery than I was 20 yrs ago...I also had the advantage of doing an apprenticeship which doesn't seem to be happening now. Sooo... by the time these new potters become a serious challenge I'll be ready to hang up my spurs, and I must say, I'm looking forward to being the old-fart looking over their shoulders, giving unsolicited advice, and being generally unbearable .....hmmm, perhaps I'm already there!!!!

Pat

[Asus101]

I'm looking forward to being the old-fart looking over their shoulders, giving unsolicited advice, and being generally unbearable .....hmmm, perhaps I'm already there!!!!

Pat

Your there....

[anttal63]

competing with the guy who makes some pots at the community center then wants to sell them at a convention or eBay.

Dale, I suppose the challenge for you (and me) is to make better pots than the person just starting and to keep improving.
There are many on this forum beginning to make pots but I figure that they are no better at pottery than I was 20 yrs ago...I also had the advantage of doing an apprenticeship which doesn't seem to be happening now. Sooo... by the time these new potters become a serious challenge I'll be ready to hang up my spurs, and I must say, I'm looking forward to being the old-fart looking over their shoulders, giving unsolicited advice, and being generally unbearable .....hmmm, perhaps I'm already there!!!!

Pat

well said pat; please dont ever be detoured from spreading your knowledge. to share it is a wonderful thing and we thank you profoundly. to even come close to your pots is years away and IF?. some time ago on another forum, a potter was willing to share their knowledge and sadly, some other potter complained that this was not the right thing to do. what was even more sad then was that the forum and mods listened to him and banned the infomation from being shared.no wonder the world is in turmoil, we cant even get past sharing knowledge of our arts and crafts. if you are a true artist, you need to get over it and get on with it and strive to always push your work further. if your work is hot so will be the money. if thats not the case maybe need to look at a career change.

[DaleCochoy]

competing with the guy who makes some pots at the community center then wants to sell them at a convention or eBay.

Dale, I suppose the challenge for you (and me) is to make better pots than the person just starting and to keep improving.
There are many on this forum beginning to make pots but I figure that they are no better at pottery than I was 20 yrs ago...I also had the advantage of doing an apprenticeship which doesn't seem to be happening now. Sooo... by the time these new potters become a serious challenge I'll be ready to hang up my spurs, and I must say, I'm looking forward to being the old-fart looking over their shoulders, giving unsolicited advice, and being generally unbearable .....hmmm, perhaps I'm already there!!!!

Pat

Of course you are right about continually striving to improve and come up with new ideas and techniques. I THINK I'm pretty good at that!
I seem to have been a bit misunderstood in my feelings I think. I have no problem with new potters, my complaint was the 'whining' I read about advanced techniques or secrets not being openly shared to beginners before they even make any pots. It was if they had a 'right' to the knowledge and didn't feel they should have to work at it. I know what you mean about apprenticeship. I'd love to have someone working with me here at home on pottery to teach them what I know. That is sURELY different than someone getting mad because you didn't just tell them what they wanted to know...for free, so they could reproduce it and then sell it in your market. I'm sure most people who make a living doing, well anything, would feel the same about some future competition in THEIR business, whatever it might be. No one ever seems to look at it in respect to THEIR particular business.
I have absolutely no idea how conventions are in OZ now but at ours here every year there are more and more newbie potters. In fact some conventions have a ridiculous amount of potters now, most new and using the techniques they see someone else using. Potters at shows now are beginning to be like 'Joshua Roth' tool dealers were for a while. A convention with 18 vendors would have 5 dealers selling their tools, so no one made any money selling their tools. Especially the guy who sold for retail as his livelyhood. He was continually outsold by the guy with a job who sold bonsai tools at conventions for a 'kick' at a couple bucks over wholesale. After all, he had a job or a pension to cover his family.
I think The general talkgroup buyer or eBay buyer makes a decision on price rather than quality a lot of the time. I myself want to hold it in my hand before I buy it. Therein lies the 'plus' of the convention/symposium. If you have nice quality and innovative stuff ...it sells. But, when you have 40% of the vendors selling their hand made pots, plus a few selling others hand made pots on commission, then there is only so much cash to go around...especially lately. That REALLY became apparent here last summer with out $4/gal gas that a few months before was less than half that!
As someone who has supported myself through bonsai since 1995 full time I am often bothered when I hear , or read, the old comment...."If you can't make a living doing that then maybe you should do something else" . I don't think I've EVER made that comment to anyone in my life! Especially in this day and age...I'd have to have a damn secure job myself before I'd say that to someone!
Well Pat, I'm 60 in a couple weeks, so we definitely aren't going to be around forever and soon it will be someone elses problem. I guess I'll never be KING and change the convention vending rules in the way I'd like. Maybe someone else will take up the challenge and make better decisions for those left who depend on bonsai for a living.

Dale

[Bretts]

I have heard about this before about the under cutters at the shows, maybe from you?

I believe,If you are unable to better the competition with price or quality then you are pretty well stuffed. Albeit just because some vendors get a kick out of it. To suggest that you rig the competition in the way the stalls are set up, as you seem to suggest to limit buyers options, is not in the best interests of Bonsai or Pottery.
I believe your pots are great quality and would be happy to own some if they were easily accessible.

[Dave54]

Hi guys,
not being a potter, I am speaking purely from a bonsai perspective.
I have personally always been a sharer of ideas, knowledge and techniques, but even giving the advice doesn't mean that the recipient of that advice can put it into practice.
Many enthusiasts have visited my collection and stated that I am withholding those absolute secrets because I get better growth in my Olives, for example than they do.
There is so far to go in the development and evolution of bonsai, that I feel the sharing of ideas is only the beginning stage of this evolutionary process.
I have stated many times that there are only a very limited number of True Artists in this country and they are the leaders who will inevetably lead the pack in styling and design, whether they share their secrets or not.
I'm sure the same can be said for all you potters.
To my mind Pat is without peer as a bonsai potter in Australia and the rest will always be copying the trend setter. ( No offence to the others)
cheers
dave

[Pat K]

No, no, Dave......definitely not!!!!
To suggest that potters caste around for some 'master' and then all blindly follow is to sell short many fine potters. If you suggest that people follow me, then logically, I must follow a potter who goes before me and so on and till you reach some superstar innovator like da Vinci.
As one develops in their chosen craft, an individual style will begin to develop and that is the 'signature' of the individual. I think that if the individual style fails to materialize then development stalls and you may as well call it quits.
To suggest that Penny and my pots (to name just two potters) are in any way the same is to be laughable. We each have our own style, our own likes and dislikes, glazes and methods.
Those people on entering the game may look at a style or technique and try to emulate it but that is just part of training.
Remember, that even da Vinci went to art school, where he copied the art of the masters before him before striking out on his own.
So Dave, thanks once again for trying to get me off my arse, but I really do like it down here!

Still smilin'
Pat

[Dave54]

I have stated many times that there are only a very limited number of True Artists in this country and they are the leaders who will inevetably lead the pack in styling and design, whether they share their secrets or not.
I'm sure the same can be said for all you potters.
[/quote]
Dear Pat, YES,YES, YES........
I do think in part we are saying the same thing. I intentionally did not name any other potters, but if you think Penny amongst others, are creating uniquely brilliant work, that is my point. If they are good enough they are amongst the "True Artists" who take the art form to the next level. The rest will try your "Shared Secrets" and probably still not produce the goods to challenge the brilliance of the chosen few!!
cheers
Dave

[Pat K]

.....help......!!!