How would you improve these trees ?

[MattA]

I thought it only fair to offer one of my own for the table... Kaffir lime of approx 12yrs age from nursery stock.

[GavinG]

MattA, its formless. I only say that because I have half a dozen citrus, and I cannot get anything more than trunk+blob - same problem. Has anyone got a cumquat/citrusthing that has some kind of form? I do like the way their trunks make veins, and cumquat fruit are ideal in size, but the leaf body is very difficult to create areas and bodies and levels and such. Do we need to? Is this a different thread? Thanks for posting, Matt, I've been bothered by the damn things for years.

Gavin

[MattA]

Hey Gavin,

Thanks for the comments.... I havent done much in the way of styling beyond removing a few crossing branches & a couple that rose from the graft area. I am working towards the look/feel of a big old orchard tree, it does have a certain formlessness compared to most 'bonsai' yet interestingly it conforms to the 'rulebook' styling of left back right (rare for me).

It needs more than a few years growing out & cutting back, the nonexistant neabari needs sorting out & so does the graft area which exihibits a bit of reverse taper (common problem with grafted citrus). It will never be true bonsai but if it one day looks like a miniature of a tree in the orchard then I will be happy.

The problem with citrus as bonsai is the leaf size & fact they dont really reduce no matter what is done. I have a couple of fingerlime cuttings that I plan to experiment with, they have nice small leaves & fruit so could have some potential with a few years & bit of training.

[Dario]

Hey Jarrod, hope your well.
Great topic, it has certainly generated a lot of interest/feedback, which I'm sure was what you intended as well as how to make trees better and to foresee styling issues in the future.
I just wanted to add my ,bearing in mind my very limited experience.

On a side note, I have noticed that a few of you said you would rather see this tree in leaf before commenting, does this not defeat the purpose of creating fine twigs? I believe most of the major shows in Japan are held during winter because they wish to show of the hard wok they have put into growing and shaping the trees. The ramification and form of a deciduous tree in winter should be something to behold.

I think that this tree is styled for when it is leaf. I do agree with your inciteful critique of the tree apart from the point about a few irregular branches in the apex, because they, in my opinion have probably been positioned to fill the canopy/apex out when the tree is in leaf (so it wouldn't be seen).

In a perfect world a deciduous bonsai would look great either in leaf or when dorment, and there probably are examples of that.
Sure, a deciduous tree in winter is something to behold, and as you said the major shows in Japan are winter shows, but does that mean you shouldn't style a deciduous tree solely for when it is in leaf, and not for the winter view.
I realise that the tree in question is a Maple and not an English Elm, however the English Elm is a good example because if you go the for the winter view with many twigs and lovely fine ramification, the tree will most likely look a little big for the pot and bulky when in full leaf. Due to the fact that the leaves a borne on a horizontal plane. Therefore the leaves at the side of the canopy protrude and as a result adding visual mass/width to the over all image of the tree (very well ramified Eng Elms that is).
This also occurs at the apex (leaves are horizontal), which can mean that they lack dimension which is highlighted on a tree with much ramification.
And conversely, if you style it with the summer-in leaf view in mind, even with adequate ramification it will still look a little bare in winter due to the previous point.
Sure this is a subtle difference, but still it is significant and it suggests to me that it is possible to style a deciduous tree favouring either winter or when in leaf as the ideal display time, as either way you will have to make a comprimise...especially if you are going to display it in a show/competition.

Even though not all species bare their leaves on a horizontal plane, I think that there are subltle differences that should be taken into account and why it is a good idea to know what design you are shooting for with deciduous trees when considerering their intended optimum viewing/display season.

If you except my point??? I don't think that going for the in-leaf view is defeating the purpose of taking advantage of of the fine twigy ramification that is especially evident in winter, because trees should be enjoyed year round. So why not have two deciduous trees of the same species designed for both in-leaf and out-of-leaf views, so that you can learn more about them and their quirks, as well as having a tree that will always highlight the particular season at hand so that the species can be enjoyed at its best throughout the entire year.

Just a thought, that makes sense to me and why I think this tree is meant to be displayed at its optimum time when in leaf.
Please let me know if you think I am way off the mark as I have much to learn.
Cheers, Dario.

[Jarrod]

Dario,

It has been a long time since I last saw you, I hope all is well. Seems you are still on the collecting high, got anything worth showing? PM me some pics, I would be interested in what you are getting. It is also good to see you posting on here. It can be very informative.

I agree, the branches in the apex are likely positioned to fill in the canopy, however I feel this was a lazy way to fill the canopy in and a graft lower would have done the job much cleaner and given it a better winter view.

On you observations of when to show a tree, I agree that a tree must look good all the time (except when you are growing out for strength and vigour) however I disagree with your point of a tree looking out of proportion if grown for its winter silhouette. If the tree has been ramified well the leaf size should have come down significantly and thus it will not increase the visual weight of the tree to a point where it is out of scale. This is my opinion only and I am sure there will be others on here that have different thoughts on the matter. That is why bonsai can be so interesting, such a varied way of doing things. We have artists on here who are very detailed in their work, choosing to follow the Japanese styling characteristics, and we have some artists on here that are mush looser with there design and maintenance and this is their way. You will notice as you start to talk to different growers that there are several different ways to do everything and also several different ways to design and maintain trees. Some I agree with, some I don’t, but it is, in the long run, their tree and they have to look at it every day in their backyard.

[Roger]

A comment on those citrusy things...
I'm wondering if it would be useful to use a different aesthetic when designing and appreciating them. I'd look at the way plum blossom is used in Chinese and Japanese art. They are greatly revered because they are the first things to flower after the long winter. The stems and trunks of these trees are often portrayed in a way that is seldom seen in bonsai. The trunks are thick and craggy, having either been pruned for decades or broken in wind storms. But after each destructive event, the tree puts forth new, young, vigorous branches - contrasting greatly with the old ones - showing vigour in old age. That contrast is a feature of value. On those young, straight, only sligly tapering branches of 1-2 years of age, come a profusion of flowers, then fruits, then heavy pruning again.

The citrus could viewed similarly. Our lemon tree has these qualities. Shapes that are spurned in 'standardised' bonsai come alive and tell stories of great interest and of beauty of their own. It is no more difficult to see this diversity of beauty in trees than being able to enjoy the beauty of the Sydney Opera House as well as that of a gothic cathedral. All buildings don't need to be of the same style to be beautiful, nor do all bonsai need to follow the same styling systems.

Roger

[GavinG]

Ah, Roger....

I will leap immediately to carve my citrus to look like the Opera House.

Seriously, my enquiry was trying to find what is the visual language of citrus, not "does anyone have a citrus that follows the rules". To me, both citrus and camellias have very dense masses of foliage, and classically correct layers look a bit silly on them. But I don't have a really clear idea what does work on either of them. Any suggestions or photos gratefully contemplated.

I noticed in MattA's citrus that the trunk and the first left branch formed a good sweeping movement - the veining in the trunk is similar to box trees or Murraya, and might be a place to start.

As for plum blossom in Japanese and Chinese art, to me it just looks like standard "Grow and Clip" style - equally stylised, but not neat and layered and formalised. My Ume is trying desperately to flower now - not after the winter but dead in the middle of it. Damn silly thing.

Roger, have you grown any of the native citrus?

Gavin

[Roger]

Yes, those trees that have little or no reduction in leaf size are challenging. One possible way forward is to use them with larger specimens where the larger leaf size is in better proportion to the whole.

One of the interesting things I saw in a series of photos a friend sent me after he visited a large bonsai garden in China was that the 'Chinese' styling of many trees, in contrast to those that were clearly influenced by traditional Japanese styles, was that the emphasis was more on the whole crown and not on the trunk per se. And the trees tended to be of the large sizes too. Such a focus allows one to worry less about the trunk and concentrate on the overall form of the crown. The dense crowns that citrus tend to get becomes a major part of their beauty. Some will like it and others not. It's a bit like the silk purse and sow's ear aphorism. Sometimes you just have to live with a sow's ear - and they can be good eating, a bit like some citrus
Roger