English Elm Defoliated.

[Bretts]

Oh the obvious question is. Why does it have to come from Japan?

[Jow]

I collect Japanese pots, simple as that. So its nice to be able to use the pots rather than having them on the shelf with all the others.

Hopefully i can find a pot that suits it by a potter i do not yet have.

[Jow]

Hi all,

Just thought i would give a bit of an update on this tree. Since starting this thread i have been thinking about this tree and peoples response to it. Is the trunk too thin? How would you thicken it? should it be layered to reduce its height? etc.

Well, after much deliberation i came up with what i thought was a way to improve on what is a tree i already like.

Anyone have any ideas on what i may have done or any ideas of what i should have done?

Here is a picture of it with another years growth and ramification next to the picture of it that was posted at the start of this thread.

comp-elm.jpg

I hadn't thought it had put on much growth this year but when you see it side by side like this it shows it has grown quite a lot.

[Bougy Fan]

Hindsight is such a wonderful thing, isn't it ? In my opinion I think the trunk is too high for the girth. I would layer it between the first and second branch and after removal bring the first branch up as a new leader. I say layer because I couldn't stand throwing away the upper section, but it will set you back another year of course.


Tony

[Jow]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the suggestions. I have thought about layering this tree but i would have chosen the junction of the first branch and grown the tree as a twin trunk. That said you end up with a thin tree with similar problems so i chose against that option.

If you were to layer where you suggested and then had cut above the first branch and use the first branch as the leader you have a good 5-10 years work to rebuild a tree. Then the problem you have with the layered top is that as you move higher up the tree the trunk gets thinner so you end up with similar problems to what you started with.

Its a tricky problem. The tree is ok as it is and it is very hard to do anything about the trunk thickness without setting it back a number of years or reducing it to a stump that i could dig along any old roadside. To reduce this tree to a stump to get better taper is not really an option either as the stump i would be left with would be un-interesting and would only ever make an uninteresting tree.

[Bougy Fan]

Looking at the before and after photos the progress does seem a bit slow - but I don't have first hand experience with this species. Would planting it in the ground give you better results if you are after a thicker trunk ?

[Jow]

Hi again Tony,

I guess what I am saying is that it is not really an issue of making the trunk thicker but more so how do I style the tree to be more convincing with it's current proportions? It's tricky.

[Jarrod]

To be honest Joe, I think this tree just needs time. With time you will get better taper in the branches which is missing, and the ramification will get better. It may mean you need to cut back the branches really hard and regrow (to get the taper), but i think it will create a better image with time. Also a slight lean to the left, to bring the apex back above the base would help.

[Bougy Fan]

Aaahhh OK. It is tricky as it does look too high for it's girth. If you don't want to take any off the top (which would maintain the base) then the only option I could see would be to layer about halfway up to the first branch. I do feel the first branch is a liitle high from the base though. Either way I think you would be in for the long run with it.

I guess it would be interesting to see what others think.

Tony

[Jamie]

gday Jow

mate I honestly dont see to much of a problem with this tree other than time. what is wrong with just giving the tree the time it needs and it will develop to where I beleive you want it. height to thickness, well I say meh. I know bonsai is the art of creating the illusion of age but who is to say that this tree isnt being developed to look like an english elm would growing naturally at this stage of its life as such, why cant we have a tree look like a 50 year old tree instead of 150 years old? I hope what I am trying to say is understandable..

as Jarrod has said I beleive this is just a time thing, it will eventually become what you want, if you want it to get there quicker then there isnt any harm in getting it out of the pot and into a box or the ground if you can be ontop of it enough in the ground.

jamie

[GerhardGerber]

Hi Jow

You mentioned something very important - it's a tree you already like!

One of those trees that look much better in real life than a photo(?)

I think we should all be carefull of talking up mediocre bonsai, but I like the look of that tree, even if the trunk is a bit thin.

My (noob) opinion is if you do anthing, put it in the ground.

Cheers
Gerhard

[craigw60]

Hi Joe, I like this tree , there is a great deal of merit in slow growing bonsai in a pot you just have to have the patience, once the root base begins to flare and give the tree a greater sense of stability it will be really nice. Sometimes I think taper is overrated and not necessary to create a convincing bonsai.
Very nice pot to
Craigw

[Jow]

Thanks for everyone’s comments so far.

I have already done the work on this tree. Two weekends ago i re-potted it, and this last weekend i pruned it.

Although i like this tree i could see where it had opportunity to be made better.

Issues that i hoped to address were:

-The slim trunk (as many members have identified):
I don’t have a problem with the trunk being thin. In fact i quite like it as most of my outer deciduous trees have heavier trunks and it is a nice change to have a trunk that is a little more graceful. The problem that i see with it is that it is out of proportion with the foliage. That is the trunk is either too thin to visually support the weight of the foliage or the foliage is too great for the trunk.

-The branch structure:
What is a little hard to see from the pictures is that the individual branches have developed similar problems to THIS tree. That is the branches had been grown quickly and lacked taper and more importantly a defined structure. The branches did not have a main line with sub branchlets but more so many main lines all of equal length. This will lead to problems down the track as they will all thicken at the same rate and worsen the lack of taper issues.

I will start with a picture taken after re-potting.

IMG_0724.jpg

So i decided to start improving a year ago at re-potting time. I kept a bunch of roots that had been removed and struck them as root cuttings. I have then used one of these cuttings to create a triple trunk tree.

As luck would have it, the tree actually grew a small shoot (just visible in the above pic) almost where i wanted it. This will become the third trunk.

Hopefully these new trunks will do two things. 1. Add some visual bulk to the lower area of the trunk. and 2. add some lower foliage to the tree making the high first branches seem to make more sense. These trunks need to do a fair amount of growing to thicken up enough and then they will be cut back hard to begin to form a nice tapered trunk.

The next step was a hard prune, but i will save that pic for a future post.

Thoughts?

[Gerard]

Thanks Jow,

I should have guessed when I saw the third trunk wired up. I think the changes will address your concerns very well and it was such a simple thing to do.
Nice planning

[kcpoole]

Hi Jow I like it just the way it is. Your last post you mentioned that most of your deciduous trees are shorter thicker trunks and you like this as something a bit different

I think deciduous trees can look fantastic as taller thinner trees as they look more feminine and delicate. this can be a great example of that. As craig mentioned, slow grown trees can be real nice. the branching needs taper ( that you will resolve that problem), and as the trunk ages it will gain the patina of age that we all admire.

Ken