The Importance of developing good Nebari on Bonsai.

[Jamie]

hi guys,

nebari is important, very important as others have explained. my thoughts on the situation is with nurseries there will always be some trees that arent up to a certain standard in regards to nebari. what needs to be realised some trees arent grown with nebari in mind to start with although it would help immensly, a lot of the time trunk thickness is what they grow for.

what we are buying when buying more advanced stock is time, this is the time it has taken to thicken the tree. and get some movement in but not necessarily. the smaller nurseries like craig and shibui are taking into account the importance of a good nebari, but these things take time so be prepared to pay for it. I always look around the base of a tree when i go to purchase from a bonsai nursery. it is one thing that needs to be looked for not to mention taper, movement and structure depending on the species.
I beleive that the nurseries that dont like the stock to be touched really need to look at what they are selling, you can really tell who is right into bonsai and how much experience they have by how dirty there hands get from scraping around. if a nursery isnt willing to let you have a bit of a scratch around then it makes me wonder what they are hiding??

as it has been said Australia is relatively young in regards to bonsai nurseries, I beleive things will get better in time too and we have some nursery owners doing the right thing and building these trees with nebari that is acceptable or at least workable.

now, if there was a tree that had every thing you could ask for on top, movement, size, structure, but had a sub par nebari but was workable. would i turn away and look for something else. probably not. I beleive it is a good thing to actaully have to work on nebari ourselves as this teaches us a lot. not only techniques on imporvement, but also patience as nebari is something that takes time to develop no matter what you do.
if the nebari has been worked by the nurseries to a higher standard be prepared to pay a decent price because the tree has had extensive work with a close watch on it. if the tree has had some work on the nebari but otherwise grown for size and movement expect to pay a standard price.

I dont know if you can say because a piece of raw stock hasnt had root work done on it that it is not suitable for bonsai, the time and effort spent on the tree could have been movement and size. in saying that when the tree gets lifted or repotted they should do some work to it as this will improve the tree imensly in the future.

craig and shibui, do you guys really throw out trees that have basal/nebari problems? I dont know if I could do that, spend a good few years developing size and shape to lift it and decide that nebari needs more work than others to just throw it in a mulcher if I was down there I would gladly take any tree that you are willing to throw in a chipper.
heck I am even prepared to do an experiment. the next tree that has sub par roots or isnt up to scratch, I would be willing to spend the time on it to see how long it did take to fix and improve the problems ten fold.

anyways. what I have said is probably just scattered ramblings, I did write out a reply to this a couple of times to only lose it in cyber space. and we know how the last argu... I mean discussion on nebari went

jamie

[shibui]

Trees are not rejected just because of poor roots. As you point out, Jamie, a tree with an exceptional top but poor roots is still worthwhile so it is only when a number of factors combine that I judge a tree as reject. Many times I have tried to redress all kinds of faults so I believe I know what can be overcome and what is just too difficult and time consuming to fix.

There was an article in an early bonsai today about field grown trees in Japan in which the professional grower mentioned they burnt trees that did not measure up so as not to devalue their product and the bonsai industry in general. This comment resonated with me and, though the Australian bonsai scene is at a much lower standard of perfection to Japan, I like to think I am doing my part to push standards a little higher.

[craigw60]

I would assume most bonsai nurseries grow their stock from seed, cutting or bought in tube stock, if this is the case then the root structure should be developed along with the trunks. A very well respected Japanese grower told me growing bonsai is like building a house you start with the foundations and work up and never work on too many parts of the tree at once, just developing it slowly as you work up the trunk.
Jamie I do bin trees but not a lot and never older material I can usually tell when the tree is 3-4 years old whether the root system is gong to be any good, I would never spend the time field growing trees with a bad root structure so that is all worked out before they go in the ground.
As to the argument that bonsai has not been around long enough here in Australia I don't believe that holds any water. The BSV bought out the first Japanese masters beginning I think in the late 70s certainly by the time I started growing in the early 80s the importance of a good root structure was understood although it took me a few years to work out how that was done. I think consumer expectations need to rise a little then the retail outlets will have to lift their game to match that. If I bought a pre-bonsai for $250.00 and the roots were in bad order I would be furious I mean what have you paid for advanced nursery stock or pre-bonsai ?
Craigw

[Andrew E]

After reading the posts I think that people need to realise that those who do run a bonsai nursery, do so out of passion but also to make money to survive. Plants are expensive, whether at a bonsai nursery or normal plant nursery. Paying a couple of hundred for a tree that has some training and labelled pre-bonsai may be still 10+ years old, and may worth much the same at a normal nusery without any training. Those 8" trees selling for $12 at Bunnings or Flower Power are at most 12 months old. As mentioned you're paying for time.
I don't believe many Australian bonsai consumers are willing to pay the top dollars for those trees with more training anyway (pre-bonsai). When I had the nursery those enthusiasts who were right into it preferred trees that had little training, more yamadori in type, so they could make their own style of the tree. Those pre styled trees were more for the novice bonsaist, who could see a future style or potential but only with a little assistance. These trees were often looked over by more experienced hobbyists as the challenge of finding the tree wasn't there or they didn't want to buy another persons style.
I have to agree that the training of trees labelled pre-bonsai should have had some sort of nebari training to go along with branches etc. But any sort of training will involve higher prices. If a tree requires wiring, price goes up, repotting and nebari work, price goes up. For prices to be cheaper the nurseryman needs to do a lot of bonsai. Having the time to do every tree correctly is unlikely as the volume will be too high. Then you've got to sell the trees....another problem as there are't many bonsaiists anyway!!
Oh and I believe that the nebari is the most important of the tree. First thing I look for whether buying or viewing. I think most nebari can be improved with time and technique.
Cheers
Andrew

[Jarrod]

I don’t think the nebari work would be that time consuming; I managed to repot and work the roots of 40 trident 2 YO seedlings in about 2 hours. That is roughly $1.5 per tree if the grower pays himself $30 an hour. I reused most of the same mix to repot and just topped up as required. I think you could easily do the same with many different species and it doesn't have to be hard or time consuming. This work in the early stages means that I will have less work to do on the roots in the future. and it sets up the nebari properly. I think bonsai enthusiasts would be willing to pay the extra $10-$15 that this work would cost over the first 3-5 years? just my

I love the idea that "they burnt trees that did not measure up so as not to devalue their product and the bonsai industry in general" I am sure there are potters in this country that already do the same, so why can't our trees be thought of in the same way? I know i will be working the roots on my trees hard and I know that I will have far better trees in the future, i also know that I wont have to much trouble moving on the trees that have had this work because I know people are starting to become a little more selective about the stock they buy, which can only be good for the industry/art.

[Jamie]

gday

its good to hear Craig and Shibui I didnt think it would be the case that you would scrap trees that have got potential to be reworked, I did think for a minute god, I couldnt do that if I spent time growing these trees to scrap them down the track! in saying that Im not a nursery in where I have to try and make money from this and if I was time would be very much considered in the development, I can understand if a tree was to take another 5-10 years of repair work to fix problems then it could be more hassle then what its worth, I dont think I would scrap it though, as one of you said I would probably put it out at a reduced price due to the problems. maybe you could have a specific section for this (or you probably already do!).

andrew has brought up some good points too. standards are a lot higher in some countries and to have that motivation of not lowering the quality is definately a good thing. quality control is used in a lot of manufacturing workplaces across this country, why not bonsai too.

as for an extra 10-15 dollars to have a better nebari, im not sure about that. even if you were to say each year of growth is worth $10 that makes a ten year old tree $100. i think that is still reasonably cheap for that sort of time! im not sure a nurseryman would be paying themselves $30 an hour either, if you know a nursery that is and I was capable of working I would be there in an instant! as a boilermaker/metal fabricator even when I was specialising in stainless steel (which in the trade you are supposed to be paid more money when you are only working with the one product) I was only ever making $22 an hour at the most. the highest I have ever been paid in my trade is $24 an hour!. so $30 an hour would be a dream!!

jamie

[Jarrod]

Sorry Jamie, I just used $30 as a guide, a very rough starting point.

$10 - $15 dollars was over a 3-5 year period, not every year.

[craigw60]

Jarrod is correct the root work is very quick and for me starts with struck cuttings, when I pot up the cuttings any with only 3 or less roots get binned and each successive potting they get sifted through again but obviously the number of throw outs gets less and less. For me to do the annual root prune on a field grown tree takes 5-10 minutes its just not a big deal.
Craigw

[Jamie]

Sorry Jamie, I just used $30 as a guide, a very rough starting point.

$10 - $15 dollars was over a 3-5 year period, not every year.

cool bro! was just pointing out I would snap that up hahaha! wasnt having a crack at all

Jarrod is correct the root work is very quick and for me starts with struck cuttings, when I pot up the cuttings any with only 3 or less roots get binned and each successive potting they get sifted through again but obviously the number of throw outs gets less and less. For me to do the annual root prune on a field grown tree takes 5-10 minutes its just not a big deal.
Craigw

agreed, can I ask how big your nursery is in the sense of how many trees would be in this situation? all I am thinking is depending on the scale for a small operation it can be a big job without help.

jsut to let ya all know Im not arguing any points here as such, just getting thoughts off the brain

[garywood]

Hi guys, I really enjoy this forum for open and direct opinions without the "confrontations" that can happen on other "Foreign" forums I'm in the usa so I probably shouldn't comment BUT on the other hand there are five fingers ( is this humor aussie compatible) From a large bonsai nursery perspective; root work on a 2 yr. trident surely only takes a few seconds. But there was soil and time and water and food to get it there. Each successive root work gets exponentially longer, more soil and larger pot or time for preparing a growing bed plus the actual time and planting and digging, then weeding, feeding, pruning and all that goes into maintaining the nursery. If cost is only figured on how long it takes to prune a 2yr seedling then the cost analysis is skewed. That doesn't even bring into the account of supply/demand or quality. Granted, quality is relative and as much time can be spent on bad trees or technique as on good trees. I think the critical point is discussions like this elevating peoples appreciating and expectations and understanding.
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

Dum loquimur, fugerit invida
Aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero

which translates as:

While we're talking, envious time is fleeing: pluck the day, put no trust in the future

[Handy Mick]

Jarred and Jamie,

I don't run a nursery, but I do run my own business.
$30.00 an hour is nothing, I'm a carpenter and I charge $40.00 and that's cheap!
I use my own tools, drive from job to job, insurance is crazy, there is about 4 types, rain days and sick days aren't payed for just to mention a few also you need to find customers to continue the work.
With nurseries they need to bare a lot in mind, including most of what I said plus others, stock, area safety of customers, land rates and other bills then when we knock off there is paper work and tax.
$24.00 per hr is good dollars, do not get deceived, I'm looking for a good job on wages because sole traders cannot get loans like you guys.

Mick

[Jarrod]

Mick/Gary,
Those costs would be involved regardless of the fact that correct root work was being undertaken? Don't you think? If so, the only variable is the time taken to perform the root work.

[Guy]

..........or anything that can't be fixed could perhaps be used in group plantings? .....

[Bretts]

Granted Gary has added some normal costs in his equation but I think the point is to concentrate on the difference he has pointed out. I had touched on this in an earlier post but was hesitant to push it as I am not that experienced in field growing or the goings on of a professional bonsai nursery. But I think Gary creates some of the best roots in the business on a commercial scale so I think he is a great addition to this discussion.
Maybe Gary can link his blog for us here or I will chase it up later!

Each successive root work gets exponentially longer, more soil and larger pot or time for preparing a growing bed plus the actual time and planting and digging.......... If cost is only figured on how long it takes to prune a 2yr seedling then the cost analysis is skewed. That doesn't even bring into the account of supply/demand or quality. Granted, quality is relative and as much time can be spent on bad trees or technique as on good trees. I think the critical point is discussions like this elevating peoples appreciating and expectations and understanding.

I don't have that much experience field growing trees or now exactly how a commercial nursery goes about it but I figure the most economical way is a nursery grows the trees (seedlings or cuttings) in pots for a year or three before being planted out. From the pot to the ground it receives root work. Maybe some are rejected for bad roots at this stage.
Then the tree is left to grow for a number of years (lets say 5 years for a 80mm trunk) with just the top pruned.

The other end of the scale I figure is seedling or cutting is grown in a pot for 3-5 years with a couple of re-pottings to train the roots. Then it is planted out in the ground for a number of years and dug up every couple of years for root work before getting replanted. With the tree dug up and roots pruned the tree will take longer to gain the size of an un-root pruned tree so the 5 years to gain 80mm might take 7 years.

So I see a number of things here that will increase the price considerably of top scale field grown trees.

[Jarrod]

Not discounting what Gary has brought to the table, in fact, I love that he has made the choice to post here. I think my point is that we have bonsai grower/nurseries field growing without doing ANY root development. How can this be sold as pre bonsai when there has been no root work performed. Granted you can correct most issues, but it would should be expected that they had done the foundation work first.

Gary, just had a look at your blog http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/ , amazing work you are doing! love it and the fact that you are putting it out there for people to see what can be achieved with a little work and know how.