Japanese Black Pine restyle.

[Tony Bebb]

Interestingly enough i didnt shorten the cascade branch at all in the virtual, i just bulked up the rest of the foliage. Intersting how it really changes the ballance! (EDIT: I just checked the photo again, the foliage at the end of the branch is care of a tree in the background)

As for movement in the cascade branch, it is thick, but where there is a will there is a way. I think with a bit of time i could get at least a bit of movement into it which would be a big improvement, failing that as you said the foliage will also help to cover the straightness.

I thought when I read the first bit that one of us was crazy. Then the edit. I never picked that foliage was from another tree. You will certainly be able to get some movement into the trunk, but just not as much as the crown. Would be better than none though.

Interesting comment Bodhi about seeing it front on. Where do you see the front

Ok. So now I'm going to get picky. Is this a cascade, or an Informal Upright with a heavy first branch There have been a lot of comments about the first heavy branch and wether to remove it or not. I get that originally the trunk was bent as an upright, and that a low branch was let to grow as a sacrificial branch to fatten the trunk. It is however now the thickest portion of the tree, and the tree has been styled as a Semi-cascade. In learning Bonsai we are taught that the trunk determines the style.
So as a Semi-cascade, and the fact the trunk is the thickest portion of a tree, is not the first branch now the upright, twisted crown of the Semi-cascade

Tony

[Jow]

Interesting train of thought Tony. This tree is not an upright or cascade, I think it's a semi-cascade！

as for branch/trunk...... That's a hard one. Can a branch support an apex? Is the fact that it is supporting the apex in fact make it the trunk?

The way I see it (which may be technically wrong) is that it is a branch. I see the trunk as the line between the root and the apex. Once I get to work I'll post a pic of the "first branch" structure so you can see that is isn't actually all that thick and it also tapers nicely.

I think part of the current feelin of un-ease people are picking up on regarding this branch is the fact it rainbows. That is it has a slight upward curve along it's length.( Convex). I think correcting that as a start and adding some up and down movement over a couple of bending sessions would even the composition out.

Joe.

[anttal63]

Great little tree and great work Jow . Im sorry but i have to say the primary branch is not in synergy with the rest of the tree anymore since compressing the top of the tree. It either needs to mimic the line character more so or a better tree with out JMO...

Hi tony,

You are right about the first branch although it and the apex were out before the work! I am probably not going to cut it off, a bit more bending should sort it out next year. As you know, pines are a long road.

Joe

Indeed mate they are a long road i am sure you have the vision and know what is possible. I look forward to seeing that !!!

[Jow]

Thansk for that Ant. As you can see from the below pic, most of the branch is very bendable. SHould be a fun next couple of years padding out the foliage and bending up this branch.

IMG_1756.jpg

View from above of the first branch. I should be able to bend most of its length.

Next years issue.

joe

[Tony Bebb]

and the tree has been styled as a Semi-cascade. In learning Bonsai we are taught that the trunk determines the style.
So as a Semi-cascade, and the fact the trunk is the thickest portion of a tree, is not the first branch now the upright, twisted crown of the Semi-cascade Tony

I also believe it to be a Semi-cascade.

Can I ask then if a Cascade or Semi-cascade does not have a crown, does it then have no apex

I love that photo from the top, it shows the development of the structure beautifully.

Tony

[Jow]

Ok. So now I'm going to get picky. Is this a cascade, or an Informal Upright with a heavy first branch

Sorry mate i was just giving a cheeky answer to your first question, im still getting the hang of how these smiley faces best convey that kind of thing...

I also believe it to be a Semi-cascade.

Can I ask then if a Cascade or Semi-cascade does not have a crown, does it then have no apex

I love that photo from the top, it shows the development of the structure beautifully.

Tony

Just to clarify are you saying that a cascade or semi doesn’t have a crown? I think that crown / apex are the same thing but then again i am not so good on correct terminology.

I tend to think there are a few style or types of cascade and semi cascade. First type has a crown or apex separate to the cascading portion.

the second the cascading portion is the whole tree and the crown/apex is built upon it.

IMG_4065.jpg

Tree with up-right trunk and first branch cascading.

IMG_4092.jpg

whole tree/ trunk cascading.

Keen to hear your thoughts.

I just found a bunch of pics from my travels that have some really nice examples... i might post some as the day goes on.

Joe

[Jow]

nice way to shorten the first branch on our right. Also interesting that the trunk and cascade branch are the same diameter.

IMG_4097.jpg

[Jow]

A full cascade

IMG_4058.jpg

[Jow]

A nice red pine.

IMG_4073.jpg

That all for today... better do some work.

[Tony Bebb]

Bloody showoff

I was thinking when I was writing the last reply, "Wish I had some pics to show what I mean". Some great trees there mate.

First of all, for you Joe and everybody else, I want you all to know there is no bickering or anymosity going on here between Joe and myself. I am loving this conversation and think it is the perfect type of discussion for this forum. I hope everyone agrees.

I am off to work very soon and won't be home till 11.30pm, so I will get more into it again then. I believe also there are different types of Cascade, which is why I made the generic reference at the start of a previous post. Of the Cascade styles, I believe there are Semi-cascade and Full cascade, also single line and 2 line cascades, as well as mutiple drop cascades. I will have to post some pics or drawings if I can find some later. So I guess in that respect, I believe there are Cascades without a crown, but all have an apex as the apex is the upper most point of the design. The top point of the Assymetric triangle when you connect the invisible dots.

The first time I fully understood Cascade was when I saw one growing of a cliff in Lamington National Park. It was a Casuarina growing completely downward, with no portion growing upright, just outwards. The people that were at Tops on the Friday night for my demo will know what I am talking about. Hopefully they remember.

I must go as I am late, but didn't want anybody to think I had opted out of this conversation. Looking forward to when you stay here in October Joe. Remember also that I am old school.

Tony

[Jow]

First of all, for you Joe and everybody else, I want you all to know there is no bickering or anymosity going on here between Joe and myself. I am loving this conversation and think it is the perfect type of discussion for this forum. I hope everyone agrees.

Totally agree there mate.... always hard to convey things over typed words, but i am enjoying wasting work hours chatting about this. I am also looking forward to chatting in october with some real trees in front of us!

I tend to avoid classifying my trees too much because i am not really all that good at it. cascade, semi-cascade and slanting they all have blurred lines in between them and it always seems that i am drawn to trees that sit in this blurred area.

Apex vs crown is an interesting one. Again i am not really good at pinning down exaqct definitions but i think i consider crown and apex one in the same. Perhaps crown includes a few more branches sometime but generally i think of it as a word that describes the trees head of foliage, as does apex. I am keen to see your drawings/ photos that illustrate your thinking.

To continue the nice tree posting i will throw another spanner in the works:

IMG_4188.jpg

I think this tree occupys the void between upright/slanting and semi cascade. what are your thoughts? Its a nice tree what ever you call it.

and then to get my tree back on track here is a highly innaccurate image of what the tree might look like in the future:

IMG_1757.JPG

Thoughts?

[Scott Roxburgh]

This has gone a long way since I check on it...

Both the before pic and the top pic show what I couldn't see in 2D. I thought we were looking at one thick long branch, I can now see where you are coming from with this.

The same diameter trunk/branch I think is what bothers my eye, but then again the one you posted works very well and is a very memorable tree.

I like the drawing, and the pot!

As for full/semi/slant,

[bodhidharma]

Interesting comment Bodhi about seeing it front on. Where do you see the front

Yeah.. phrased it badly Tony ...Sorry. What i meant was, could i see the tree with the cascade branch facing toward us so i could see the movement and spread.

[Jow]

This has gone a long way since I check on it...

Both the before pic and the top pic show what I couldn't see in 2D. I thought we were looking at one thick long branch, I can now see where you are coming from with this.

The same diameter trunk/branch I think is what bothers my eye, but then again the one you posted works very well and is a very memorable tree.

I like the drawing, and the pot!

As for full/semi/slant,

Hey scott,

I also always find it hard critiquing trees from photos. Some photos can point out certain flaws and other times they hide a whole range of other points.

The pot could work i think.....then again so could a range of others......

[Jow]

Interesting comment Bodhi about seeing it front on. Where do you see the front

Yeah.. phrased it badly Tony ...Sorry. What i meant was, could i see the tree with the cascade branch facing toward us so i could see the movement and spread.

Hi Bodhi,

Ill try to get a pic fromt eh side some time tonight or tomorrow morning.

Joe.