Identifying Pines

[Jow]

Having grown from an area with a few different species of pine around, they could always be a hybrid of some sort....

[alpineart]

Having grown from an area with a few different species of pine around, they could always be a hybrid of some sort....

Hi Jow the seeds were all struck in town here in 1920-1930 then planted out by an old timer {blacksmith} with a bullock team . I know this for a fact as i spent 8 years talking to his grandson every week , whom unfortunately passed away several years ago . The test plots were long established before any Montereys were planted in 1935 .Then in the 60's-70's they trialed Lodgepole and Nigra's, and again they have returned to Montereys . Just for the record "Pinus Radiata" is not actual species it is actually the timber produced from the Monterey Pine .Cheers

[Jow]

Pinus radiata is the latin name for the "monterey pine".

I love them myself and think that what we have in Australia are interesting as material. The Montereys or radiatas that we have in australia (at least in forestry) are all grown from tissue culture and as a result are all clones shareing the same growth habit. the seedlings that we collect being from seed will throw some differences from their parents. They have been improved over their life as a forestry tree and now posses many habits that perhaps their natural relatives do not such as rapid straight growth.

The variety Pinus radiata var. binata (Guadalupe Pine) is actually quite rare and is bing planted in the national arboretum in Canberra. On its home the Guadalupe islands, off the coast of mexico, it has become threatened due to wild goats of all things and there are very few left. It will be interesting to see how it grows along side the forestry trees of the area.

That being said, if yours is not a 3 needle i am guesing it is one of the many many two needles. Dont forget that within each species there is also vast variation, just to make your job more difficult.

Either way you have some really nice material to work on, whatever it turns out to be.

[alpineart]

Yes well today there would be many variants and cultivars cloned or otherwise , however back in the 1920's seed was seed and grown and planted not like today were every man and his dog crosses and grafts and plays havoc with nature . After all this was Aus 90 years ago . Blacksmiths , Jinkers , Bullock teams and gravel roads they were rough and ready way back then .I couldnt imagine they went overboard in seed collection in the Northern Hemisphere to send seed all the way down under .Either way i'm looking to I.D trees grown from seed in the early 1920s.Cheers

[Bretts]

The bark of our gums has been shown to have a big difference in varying climates and often makes identifying very difficult. Pines are much the same with bark being different in different climates Black Pine more so than White Pine. But they can go even further having a variation in needles from area to area and also in the same area. This is said to be from variable climate and cultivation conditions at germination. This is for natural grown trees so I would think it would relate to seed cultivated for testing back in the 1920's. With a quick search I have found hybridization tests that date back to the 1930's so I don't think that scientific hybridization should be ruled out either since they where doing test plots.
It is also very possible the seeds that where sent over had already gone through a natural hybridization before they where collected.
I would think that the needle count, flowers and cones would be the best way to identify.
One of the botanical gardens does this for free upto 6 times a year if you send them a sample of teh tree with flowers and seeds on it. I have the contact details here somewhere if you like.

[alpineart]

Hi Bretts , Yes that would be a good thing . Best bit of info to date ,i would certainly follow them through as i'm quite sure there are other trees that will need to be I.D .Cheers

[Bretts]

I was steered towards this by a seed retailer when I was talking about what seemed to be a trident that had a single lobed leaf the shape of microcarpa ficus Over a few years it was reverting back to a 3 lobed leaf. It's offspring all had sharp defined three lobed leaves.
They informed me that this was a natural variation in trident maple leaf.
They could not identify my Carpinus that has rough bark which Ray states as American hornbeam. They where in between exotic specialist at the time they seem to prefer the natives. I have since found that American hornbeam is the most easily hybridized and one that it Hybridizes with is Carpinus Cordata which is one of the few carpinus that has rough bark and the same peculiar autumn colour yet the seed pods look different.
After discussing it with Peter Adams at the workshop with it he believed this was a possible explanation. I put the species down as Carpinus caroliniana-Cordata on the Draft he will use to draw his design Picture for the tree. So it will be interesting what species he puts down. Apart from Genetic testing I think I have come to the end for any better Identification.

Anyway see here:
http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/plant_info ... on_service
I have given the details of this service to Steven and I believe he has used it and should have the results back by now. Hopefully he will chime in and let us know how they did with his samples?

[alpineart]

I was steered towards this by a seed retailer when I was talking about what seemed to be a trident that had a single lobed leaf the shape of microcarpa ficus Over a few years it was reverting back to a 3 lobed leaf. It's offspring all had sharp defined three lobed leaves.
They informed me that this was a natural variation in trident maple leaf.
They could not identify my Carpinus that has rough bark which Ray states as American hornbeam. They where in between exotic specialist at the time they seem to prefer the natives. I have since found that American hornbeam is the most easily hybridized and one that it Hybridizes with is Carpinus Cordata which is one of the few carpinus that has rough bark and the same peculiar autumn colour yet the seed pods look different.
After discussing it with Peter Adams at the workshop with it he believed this was a possible explanation. I put the species down as Carpinus caroliniana-Cordata on the Draft he will use to draw his design Picture for the tree. So it will be interesting what species he puts down. Apart from Genetic testing I think I have come to the end for any better Identification.

Anyway see here:
http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/plant_info ... on_service
I have given the details of this service to Steven and I believe he has used it and should have the results back by now. Hopefully he will chime in and let us know how they did with his samples?

Hi Bretts Totally of the original topic ,the Trident you speak of i would like to see a pic as i too have found a type of Trident that has 3 yes 3 different leaves on the same branch and as yet nobody can assist with info because as you say the hybridized possibilites are endless .Thanks for The info i will follow up asap

[alpineart]

Hi Grant , i believe this could very well be the pine your referring to .All the info is in the listing .After your info today i am quite certain its a Pinus LEUCODERMIS var ANTOINE .Cheers Alpine

[Grant Bowie]

Hi Grant , i believe this could very well be the pine your referring to .All the info is in the listing .After your info today i am quite certain its a Pinus LEUCODERMIS var ANTOINE .Cheers Alpine

Welcome.It ticked most of the boxes and i had the benefit of seeing it before.

grant

[alpineart]

Hi Grant , i believe this could very well be the pine your referring to .All the info is in the listing .After your info today i am quite certain its a Pinus LEUCODERMIS var ANTOINE .Cheers Alpine

Welcome.It ticked most of the boxes and i had the benefit of seeing it before.

grant

Hi Grant this pine is different to the one i listed today .Cheers