rules

[craigw60]

Happy to see not everyone is giving me a complete caning for raising this issue. I am very comfortable saying that most of my trees conform to the styling principals as outlined to me by various visiting japanese masters. I don't have any natural artistic skills and find that by following these techniques I can achieve reasonably convincing bonsai. I have during my bonsai years met a couple of people with very real artistic skills and have soaked up what I can from their inborn talent.I don't really believe in the concept of an Australian bonsai style, I believe bonsai is bonsai whether grown in Germany or Costa Rica the concepts remain the same.

[Greth]

Here is a quote from Christophoer Lloyd, the renowned garden writer, his book 'The Well-Tempered Garden'
A quote which says a lot about rules.

'And so, to the amateur gardener's eternally repeated question 'When should I?' and What's the best time to?' I've concluded that nine times out of ten the answer is 'When you're thinking about it; when you're in the mood'. This I realize, is the last thing he wants to be told, because it is an adult answer, and the amateur, in whatever the subject, will long remain a child, seeking advice and guide-lines in the form of clear-cut, black or white answers to his manifold doubts. To be told that it doesn't matter is unsettling. The kind answer to 'When should I?' is 'Do it on the 31st March.' No shilly-shallying there.

So the experts who say ' do it precisely this way' are right. The experts who say ' Do it how you feel is right' are right too. Incidentally, I often see answers along the lines of ' if this was my tree, I would do thus and such for now' which is even more reassuring, because it doesn't sound like they are making wild risky suggestions about your beloved tree. You have to gauge for yourself tho, if they are more or less of a risk taking individual than you are.

[Rod]

Gidday all would like to add my humble opinion as a new boy on the block , to what seems like a touchy topic. For you guys who have been on the forum for a long time some of this must be a little boring as it has already been discussed so much. For those of us who are new to the forum, it's a good opportunity to post and have a healthy discussion with new and old members. I prefer to look upon the so called rules as guidelines, I was lucky enough to be born with some artistic ability . I know lots of people who know they don`t and in their cases these guidelines can be used to get a basic outline to start- this a bit like painting by numbers . After a while they can develop an eye for bonsai , and put their own twist on it . These are just guidelines so we can and should be flexible in their use. That is what makes our trees different and interesting. CHEERS ROD.......

[Greth]

Thanks Rod, think you have said it really well.

[Bretts]

When the Easterners gave us the rules there was never any mention of them being rigid. This was our interpretation and is wrong.
Take the left right back rule. Has anyone ever been as ridiculous to state that your tree has the first branch on the right that is wrong and breaks the rules. So why when a first branch is a back branch do people state it is proof that you break the rules.
The rules only make sense when thought of with an eastern brain. The Easterners where smart enough not to try and explain ever aspect of the rules as it would become too complicated instead they have given us a quite amazing bunch of clues and the rest is for us to work out.
Robert Stevens is upto two books and he still can't explain them fully

Can you say perception is a guideline when talking about painting. It is a technique. And I think that is the best western word to explain the rules they are techniques that enable you to create small trees that look like big trees and tell a story of that tree.
People with artistic ability are able to use these techniques better than others. Some may even learn the techniques without being shown but almost all will benefit from schooling in these techniques.

[Jamie]

Na!

SOFT!!! come on ant, get into it!

i think it is a matter of understanding rules/guidelines/whatever you want to call them, once an understanding has been achieved that you understand these arent set rigid, but can be bent, twisted, contorted but not neccessarily broken, that we can further ourselves, this is gonna get into a rather large topic i think, but rod has stated things well.

if we all followed rules to a T then we would have trees that all looked the same and we might have well used cookie cutters on them, and i hate using that term! every tree i work on, is indivdual, ts different from the next, it isnt the same as before, i try and further myself everytime i work on a tree, try and make it better than last time i worked on it, or try and design something better than the previous one.

this is just my coception of the idea!



jamie

[Rod]

I agree Bretts , we in the west do get carried away , mate I love Roberts style and have enjoyed his last book immensely . I read an article recently about a Japanese Master teaching in America'who had trouble with the concept that us Westerners want everything written down . In Japan you learn by being observant of what the master is showing - maybe we want it too fast? This is where some could get caught up in the "RULES " I think it is good for everyone to learn the basics though it`s a good place to start your bonsai journey. Being less rigid can make us more creative in our styling -placing our own touch on our trees. CHEERS ROD..

[Bretts]

That's pretty close to how I think about it Rod. The funny thing when I discuss this is that I often find it comes down to an understanding of words. Yet I think using the right words is very important.
If you are using a word that has a different meaning than you want it too the brain is confused. I dislike the word rules and guidelines. I also dislike the terms of breaking and bending the rules. To me that just does not explain what is going on.
A beginer in bonsai would straight away try to break or bend the rules when trying to advance their bonsai creations.
What sought of motivation to learn and understand the rules is learn them and then forget them.

I read an article recently about a Japanese Master teaching in America'who had trouble with the concept that us Westerners want everything written down

This is exactly the point. The rules of bonsai are so intricate that it is virtually impossible to write them down. Take a fine arts degree. That's something like 4 years and many texts. Even then there would be many holes left in your understanding unless you are some artistic freak.
Relate this to Bonsai. Imagine sitting down with all those art texts and trying to learn them without the instruction of a great teacher.
When I think of it this way I see the rules as absolutely amazing how they are able to encapsulate all these texts into a couple of pages and with some thought as you progress your understanding of what makes great bonsai evolves. This gives me an understanding of eastern culture more than anything in the past. They are clues to great bonsai. They should be explored and discoverd.
Again if anyone thinks that this will create boring bonsai then you don't understand how the rules where intended.

I think I would prefer to call them Clues to Artistic Techniques of Bonsai. The CATs

[Pup]

At last we have the, Cats meow, and some understanding.

Something I have been trying to say, in the last thread and this one.
Apply what you have learnt that way it comes naturally like, well any thing in life.

Cheers Pup

[Chris H]

Thats great Brett. The Clues. I like it.

[Greth]

So when the rules are insistent about using triangles, using sets of odd numbers, etc, it means that these arrangements will generally result in the most pleasing bonsai. Doesn't mean an expert couldnt make a squarish shape, or use 4 stems in a clump, just means that these will generally look pretty contrived especially if attempted by an amateur, begin to lose the naturalistic Bonsai feel and start to look like playful topiary instead.

Playful topiary can be fun too, In fact some people take it to an artform of its own, it just isn't what is called Bonsai. Remember the ideal of creating a miniature of a wild tree or group of trees, something which would be pleasing to you if you saw it in the wild.

[craigw60]

First to all the people who yawned when I posted this topic remember you may have discussed this topic but others have not. This issue is going to appear again and again as long as this site operates it will appear often so please don,t yawn engage and soak up ideas.
I have been growing trees from seed and cuttings for years and when I work with a batch they all get pretty much the same treatment down to the curves I put in the trunks while they are very young. No two ever turn out the same.
In the early 80s when I first started learning this art people were amazingly rigid about these rules and the first branch had to be on the right. I saw people destroy perfectly good trees to achieve that But even with this ridiculously rigid approach you never saw two trees the same.
I have here a book published by Kenichi Oguchi it is a photographic depiction of his amazing collection. Mostly really big yamadori conifers. Many of these trees are bonsai masterpieces. When studying these trees in detail you can see so many departures from these so called rules but at the same time they all conform. This is I think what we need to understand, to follow the principals of good bonsai design but not to be constrained by them.

[Bretts]

Greth my advice would be to study the rules in depth. Think about what is behind the rule. Some rules will be reminiscent of the tree in nature and some are more specifically to create the illusion of the tree in nature from the small tree in the pot.

As an example lets look at the odd number for forests. This is the rule because it has been found that we often find an un-natural balance in even numbers(nature is not symmetrical). When the numbers get higher there is less chance that we will notice.
So the rule to me would be "Don't have a visible un-natural symmetry in the forest" This part of the rule can't be broken. As you explore this rule you may find ways that you can have an even number of trees without causing this effect. In fact for whatever reason an even number may work better.
What I see is the essence of the rule is not broken.

[Bretts]

When studying these trees in detail you can see so many departures from these so called rules but at the same time they all conform. This is I think what we need to understand, to follow the principals of good bonsai design but not to be constrained by them

This is the best rules discussion yet

Here is one of Kenichi Oguchi trees

DSC07454.jpg

I see a couple of things here. A branch that crosses the trunk after exiting from the front of the tree. An also very little foliage to the right.

A trunk should not cross the trunk because it upsets the eye as it travels the trunk. This branch does not upset the flow of the trunk so it's not breaking the essence of the rule. In fact I see this as someone who has mastered this rule. I am not concerned that some may say Hey but it literally breaks the rules. To me that is not what the rules are so it does not break it or even bend it. To bend it would be to have a crossing branch that is just a bit upsetting. We avoid anything upsetting so if it was even mildly upsetting it would fail in it's composition.
Now as to the branch exiting from the front of the tree(I think anyway) This seems to be in contradiction to the right left back rule but I don't think it is. In fact the artist has gone to the trouble of finding a way to cross the trunk and have that foliage mass out to the left balancing the tree as the left and right branches should. To me this is great execution from some one that has mastered the rules.
Lastly the next branch up is a back branch. A back branch should not be exactly to the back of the tree. It can/should ? be used to compliment the movement of the tree. Here it is used in having just a sneak of foliage to the right. It does a great job of giving the impression of foliage on the right without adding any weight to that side.

[kcpoole]

Thats great Brett. The Clues. I like it.

So does that mean that those that don't get it are Clueless??

Nice summary Brett and Ron

Ken