AusBonsai

oh, i forgot to tell you that i think the work you did on these trees was great bretts

well done

Great stuff Brett

There are always two ways of looking at a challenge....the glass is either half empty or half full.....

Now that the Seiju has lost its arms, you will be able to save heaps of money by not having to buy wire for a year or two....Maybe enough to pay for that other hornbeam I saw you bought

Regards
Steve

way to go bretts. to me it sounds and looks like you have moved forward leaps and bounds. well done mate.

Goodonya Brettles!

I can only echo the positive comments made by others regarding the work on your trees, but most especially the Hornbeam: it has come along in leaps and bounds, and I believe Mr Adams' vision for it to be a realistic and desirable goal! The work you've done has reduced the top-heaviness of the trunk, and in years to come the taper should even out nicely.

As for the Elm... I think I know why you believe that first branch needs to come down: the stub of the 2nd branch appears to be pointing ever so slightly downward in the photos, and the basic framework is beginning to resemble that of a conifer Bonsai, in which case the 1st branch should (traditionally?) be at or below the horizontal. The 2nd branch stub suggests the beginning of the classic 'drop branch' on a Juniper, and affects perceptions of the rest of the tree. I would try to ignore that feeling, and maybe even cut that stub right off and start the branch again in a more upright position. In short, I think the 1st branch is OK at the moment, and it is the 2nd branch which is troublesome. Does that make any sense?

Another potential solution could be to tilt the tree to the right a bit, but not so far that the 1st branch is at/below horizontal. That might help in a couple of ways: it will lower the 1st branch (as you wish) and also bring the 2nd into a more upright position. While you're at it, you could lean the tree away from the viewer by a handful of degrees. In this scenario, you would likely have to pot-up (and deeper) to allow the exposed roots some thickening time.

Anyway, both trees are worthy of much consideration and time.

Wishing I could have been there...

Fly.

Firstly I love the work you have done on the hornbeam. It will be beautiful in no time.

Secondly, I was just about to suggest much the same response as Fly about tilting the tree slightly. That would solve most of the issues you now see with the tree. I personally dont think the branch needs to come down so theres 4 - 1

It really does look like you have had an absolute ball and I am very jealous.

4 - 2.

...and if it was mine (which it is not), the 2's would have it

It is funny that we even both counting them.

Bretts will decide to do as he wishes. Which is why I love this art so much. Freedom to express ones own feelings, Ones own ideals.

Jarrod

Thanks for the interest and kind words. I will keep your thoughts in mind and update you on the progress.

I got my email from Peter showing his concept for the Hornbeam.
It is funny how close I was to his design yet so far I was pushing the tree to have a much longer apex which would have taken alot longer.
It is in a foam grower box this year but I better get to work making a pot as Peter suggests for next year and learn how to start refining it. I am not sure if it will handle the heat well in a pot this shallow so I think I will make one one deeper as it's usual pot and one shallower as Peter suggests for showing off.

This has been an excellent discussion and i have enjoyed it immensely. I have nothing to add as most of it has been said. I look forward to another of these in the near future. It has encouraged my to put up one of my trees which i love dearly and seek input on it. I will do this once i set it up. Thank you all.

Wow, after looking at Peter Adams concepts i have the sudden urge to go and redraw my own!

That is an amazing sketch!

His drawings are an inspiration. He seems to work with the tree in a way that I wonder if he has ever told someone to chop and start again?
I am not as good and felt the need to start again with the Seiju
It went into a terracotta pot(wish it had been wider but it will do) and branches where taken back to stubs. I wanted to get the branch ramification (chops) all the same and as a very tight tree can become of it I wanted to fit alot of taper and movement into the branches right from the start.
The added bonus is that I increase the chance of getting a shoot at the back of the tree where I want it without having to graft. As you can see from the pictures these things back bud like crazy. It is even worse when the bark is thick as you have to get in between the bark to trim the advantageous shoots off.
This is the spot that I want to create a back branch but It has always been bare. There are the beginnings of buds getting closer to the point this year though. Only the bare essentials left at the moment I will wire these branches as soon as they are strong enough.
I finally figured the roots out and realised I did not need those young roots that where high on the trunk so they have been removed and I am now confident the old roots are not dieing off as I suspected every other cautious repot. I think planting it so deep to accommodate these high young roots was also the cause of the bark loss. Planting deep to accommodate these roots was causing the water to keep the porous bark damp.
It now even has a very decent root base under that soil which I thought was going to be it's downfall for years to come.
I took the opportunity to take off a few nodules that had been growing under the coarse bark and clean up the scars now you can see what is bark and what is tree The section Aaron pointed out is still a bit fat but I am not keen to carve that out at the moment as that is the only section separating two scars. Maybe as it barks up again I will get into that as the bark does a great job of covering the scars.
I reckon I will almost be back to where I was in about two years better than ever.

Just over two weeks later and it is time to do the process again.
You may notice the branches I left from the last trim have turned red while the new ones are still green. This shoot is possible for a back branch but it looks like there is one on it's way right where I want it. I have very loosely wired some of the branches I am keeping. It might be leaning to a bonsai image more than a natural tree image but I think that is what this tree was asking for. I would have liked more movement in the branches but I was not game to muck around with them too much at this tender age.

I have a question Brett. Where are all the branches you cut off? not in the compost I hope, you had some really nice Shohin potential in them.
Yes this will be a nice BONSAI a friend of mine has one, the Bonsai sitter he has done the same.
His comment was I wish I could control the kids that easy!.
Nice one brett

Pup

At first I thought you meant the little fluffy bits I have been trimming off lately and I thought you had lost your marbles
Then I realised it was the actual branches I cut off a while back you mean. Yes I have made cuttings of some of them and they where going great but since I was using a heat mat over winter without a thermostat I was regulating the manual way often checking the temp and I overheated the cuttings tray two days in a row with the change in weather. The leaves burnt back on some in one end looks like I lost one and one seems to be coming back. Live and learn The seiju elm was my best performing cuttings no wonder they are becoming popular with the nurseries
The ones I cut off at the workshop went in the bin though.