celtis- chinese hackberry

[Jamie]

hmmm, spittin a bit now that i have read that...

i buy this kind of stock for the first 2 inches of girth, the rest in the bin.

i chopped of some low branches that i want thinking i was gonna use... ahwell, these guys are pretty strong growers, could probably just trunk chop and offset V and get what i am after

jamie

[Jamie]

I have about 10 chinese elm sticks in pots that were inch thick cuttings from a big tall "Standard" from a nursery. Chopped the trunk up into little pieces. I plan on chopping them all down an inch tall and making 10 mini brooms... they're going to be great!

sounds interesting webos look forward to seeing the thread


jamie

[Bretts]

anttal63 wrote:
my thoughts are; i see a stick with no taper. at that price its good stock to cut to the first branch and grow on. hard to make a good tree in its current configuration. sorry, brutal but no bull.

It is hard to look past the under 5:1 with plenty of taper fashion that is drummed into us at the moment. This is not always necessary. Take a look at the first image of the tree in leaf. This is a very pleasing image and with structure ramification and age this can be an exceptional formal upright. If you take the time to look at deciduous trees of this form you will find very pleasing similar images of beech and such from very accomplished bonsai growers. Although they are not plastered over the Internet like the trees in fashion at the moment.
By Jamies calculations it will be about 6:1 This style could easily go 10:1 or even 12:1 I would like to see a picture of the leafless tree out of the pot and the next branch down on the left may be a better option and I am going by Jamies measurements but exaggerated taper is not always nesacary.
Haven't read this for a while but I see this as a vibrant far view tree.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATbonsaiviews.htm

I would also recommend looking through the first few WOB series to see how the Easterners style these trees.
As I said images of the style I speak of are not common but here is something like I imagine at 6.5:1

beech.jpg

I will see if I can find a closer image of what I say.

[Jamie]

bretts, thats a similar vision to what i seen of this tree when i first seen it and then more so when i got it in my hands and defoliated.


jamie

[Bretts]

Any chance of another picture without the pot Jamie

[Pup]

The price of egos is very cheap.
This tree as it is, has potential to be a broom style tree. If you look at the style's of or different forms,
of the broom style you can see it.
It is like Bunjingi and does not need a lot of taper. It does need a straight trunk though.

It is a style that takes time, but when you achieve it, it is very rewarding.
What is not is seeing good stock being chopped up. With out due consideration of its true potential.

JMHO cheers Pup

[Jamie]

Any chance of another picture without the pot Jamie

that wont be a problem mate, i will get it as soon as possible for you

The price of egos is very cheap.
This tree as it is, has potential to be a broom style tree. If you look at the style's of or different forms,
of the broom style you can see it.
It is like Bunjingi and does not need a lot of taper. It does need a straight trunk though.

It is a style that takes time, but when you achieve it, it is very rewarding.
What is not is seeing good stock being chopped up. With out due consideration of its true potential.

JMHO cheers Pup

so what you are saying pup is to go with the original plan of the cut site at the top and grow out from there ??
thats what i am pretty sure you are saying anyways

jamie

[Pup]

Jamie I see the potential for the candle flame variant broom in this tree. The big thing is what you want. The picture that Brett has posted is pretty close to what I see.

All the chop top and grow is fine if you want a different tree than what you first saw.
Now to get that taper that is being spoken of you need to let that bottom branch grow. Till you have the trunk thickness you want.

Which will take as long as chopping the top of for taper, which is advocated.

As I said at the beginning the tree has potential. In Peter Adams, book the art of Bonsai on page 28.
He states that the Broom style ( Hokidachi ) he has 4 variations of it he has one which he calls intact leader variant.

If you look at our own indigenous Ficus rubiginosa and Ficus macrophylla you will often see natural forms of the variation.
Also many Maple enthusiasts will say this is the preferred form.

So Jamie to cut a long story short yes go with that first prefered styling.

Cheers Pup, but remember it is just MY humble opinion for what it is worth.

[Jamie]

cheers pup, i take your opinion quite highly, you have a lot of experience and have seen a lot of trees in your time.

i feel this tree needs to go the way of my intitial thoughts and vision, thats how i think it should go as i dont want a super massive trunk, i got it because it had potential for the style shown above.

so this is what i have done.
"
i have made a very steep angled cut to enhance the top section, and i have done it at such an angle that it helps with the "front" of the tree, i then had to use my rotary tool to carve out a fair hollow in behind the branch i wanted to use as a leader, this allows the branch to be practically straight up with the trunk so it stays in with the dead straight trunk one thing i was surprised at was how thin the cambium layer is on the celtis species, very thin but very solid too, the wood seems to be quite hard to.

so here is how it looks now after the chop and its out of its pot for this shot for you brett

celtis top chopped.jpg

the other picture i have taken is looking down on it to show branch placement, i am hoping i get some budding where i need it so i can fill in a slight void at the front of the tree, other wise it might need grafting.
the branch placement isnt bad, and i am hoping that the way these grow that it wont take long to get to where i would like

top veiw.jpg

i still need to refine some of the branch placement, everytime i take a picture of this i see something else that needs to be moved a bit, bloody cameras, they always show the defects
i also need to clean up the cuts some more from where i took off lower branches.

cheers.

jamie

[Pup]

Jamie if that last plan veiw is your front. Then the first two branches need to come forward at approx 45% so when you look from the front at eye level they are come towards you, and over the corner of your eventual pot.
They should look at approx 120% when looking from the front. When the branch structure goes up the trunk the other branches then follow this pattern.
So when you are two thirds the way up you will have a branch coming towards you. The tree then looks like a tree and not a step ladder.

Cheers Pup

[Jamie]

ok pup this might confuse you just as much as your last post confused me a bit, but after reading it four times i think i got what ya said

top veiw plan.jpg

ok mate here we go, i think this is what you were saying. for a start i have marked with a black arrow which is the front as of now with the arrow pointing away from the tree, the red arrow shows the back with the arrow facing the front of the tree, the yellow lines are of where the first two branches are starting from at the trunk and where i firgure that they need to be going from what you have said.

when you are talking about the 120 degrees when looking from the front i take it you mean that is looking front on the banches need to be upward pointing at 120 degrees approximately and then all the other branches follow this line? if this is correct then it seems my branching placement is to horizontal to look natural?

sorry if i have confused ya i have tried to explain best i can

cheers.


jamie

[anttal63]

hmmm, spittin a bit now that i have read that...

i buy this kind of stock for the first 2 inches of girth, the rest in the bin.

i chopped of some low branches that i want thinking i was gonna use... ahwell, these guys are pretty strong growers, could probably just trunk chop and offset V and get what i am after

jamie

you got it right here mate! at this point in time you have to ask yourself? do you want great trees eventually. if you are happy to just potter and settle for ok thats cool too. i think you want more than that. besides there is plenty of just ok trees out there. lets do better than that.

[Jamie]

thanks ant

i have a basic game plan for this tree, it is gonna be going into a grow box for the next couple of years, heck i dont even know how it will respond in my climate or my harshness i have given it already should be ok. but basically i will let it grow out for the next couple of seasons as is and see how it goes, this will give the tree the time to respond to what i have done, it will also allow lower branches to form once again if the top section isnt styling like i want it to, then it might be a chop, i know it might seem like a waste of time but i will still get the two seasons growth on the trunk and branching.
i also would have the chance to air layer the top off aswell if i go the way of chopping to the first branch. this would one give me a little shohin with lots of branching and give me two trees that will end up being sweet



jamie

[Bretts]

Nice work on the flow of the new leader Jamie I am not sure how you got it so good without taking more wood out

I am only working on a scale picture but I got about 9:1 height ratio when I measured this and about 7.5:1 when I double checked. This is a bit different to the 6:1 I got with your measurements
As I said 9:1 should be fine with this style but when working with a tree that is just beginning structure development I always like to have a few points up my sleeve.
I would go the next branch on the left down as my new leader. I get this as 12 mm across by 80 mm high as about 6.5:1 This will give you some room to move in getting the transition from the trunk to the new leader. As i feared this means you need a lower branch or even two. The image that we are trying to convey here is a vibrant healthy tree in the prime of it's life.
To me this means it's first branch should be no higher than 1/3 the final height maybe lower. Going down further with the leader I see the top of this tree at about 80mm in the picture when the lower leader is used. This makes your first branch just under half way up the tree which I see as too high.
Although it is a bit of a dam issue it is not a big deal. I would expect a few buds to pop out on the trunk. Especially if you are game to cut back the other branches as I indicated. If you get a sucker branch at the base that would be great to increase the flare at the bottom too.
As you consider these advantageous buds a new front may also emerge but that will only come in time after the height ratio with room to move is established.

[Jamie]

brett the overall ration of the tree i still think will come in alright, it is accepted to have a tree at a 10-1 ratio so we should be good. my only issue with going down lower is as you state, it will bring the first branch to over half height of the tree. this will make it look not so good.

how far do you recommend i cut back the ramaining branches? i know if i do this it will make the tree push new growth all over the place, i am hoping this will happen from what i took off, it was quite a large amount of branching really.
my other issue in getting new branching lower is that the branches above will be quite a bit larger, but all of this can change over the years too

as for the flow on the leader i am pretty happy with that result to go over it i made a steep a cut as possible to gain the visual of the front, as you said this may change, but hopefully it will heal over quite well. i did take out a section behind the branch which allowed the live wood and cambium to move quite easily in the direction i needed. i will take a pic tomorrow to show you for now i have a pretty crap mudmap of what i done and roughly how much i took out

celtis mudmap of cut.jpg

jamie