craigw60 wrote:I have always been of the understanding thai 1m is about the height limit for a bonsai but as with all things in this art form everything is open to interpretation. I have a tree that is slightly over 1m and I am firmly convinced its a bonsai.
As to what makes a bonsai again that would be open to the interpretation of the artist. I would have thought a level of training would be required. There are certainly a lot of trees out there in pots that do not look much like bonsai but the growers are happy with them so who can question that. I think that the word bonsai has a much deeper meaning than the literal interpretation.
Craig
Very well put Craig.
Quoting from a magazine on etiquette, a golden rule of Bonsai is never touch another's tree with out the owners permission, second rule do not be to critical of another persons tree.
A bonsai reflects its owner's ideal of beauty,something subjective and which,as such, will not be the same for two different persons.
I gave a Granddaughter and her Husband a house warming gift of a twin trunk Cycas revoluta ( sago palm ) they thanked me very much for there Bonsai.
I told them it was not a Bonsai it fell on deaf ears, at her Sisters wedding on Saturday they retreated it and told me it is going well.
Cheers Pup
Brett your pictures of Saikei are very nice. The one in the Gas mask is definitely not my taste, but as Jim would say what ever floats ya boat.
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
Brett, I love that interpretation of Bag End with the Party Tree, lovely little landscape, we don't always have to stick to a Japanese mountainside do we? Cant see any reason for not calling that one bonsai, or the gas mask thingy, just people using trees in new ways.
If you are not killing plants, then you are not extending yourself as a gardener..
Brett your pictures of Saikei are very nice. The one in the Gas mask is definitely not my taste, but as Jim would say what ever floats ya boat.[/quote]
A gas Mask is that what it is. I couldnt work it out. Thank God you cleared that up for me Pup
"Advice is rarely welcome, and the one's who need it the most welcome it the least"
Hey all, thanks for all the input. As with everything in life we have multiple views , atleast they all converge on the same central premise, that of growing a plant in a pot with some degree of artistic interpretation. Pup, I disagree with your definition. I am yet to see a tree in any of the exhibition books that looks like something you would find in nature, too structured. Well apart from literati & some deciduous trees, particularly Prunus, tho even with these there is a certain unnatural naturalness to them, too manicured. The hand of man shows thru. If you want to see trees that look natural its in penjing that you will find them. Many of our own works in progress are closer to it than any exhibition piece.
I loved the landscape of bag end, its no different than the chinese using miniature buildings & figurines in many of their landscapes. As nonconformist as i am the gasmasks went that bit too far. However, given a few years to grow & styled to suit them, they have all the possibility of becoming future groundbreaking works of art, akin to the infamous root over bowling ball demo of a few yrs ago. Personally, I collect shoes from bush dumps and any other bits that take my fancy, all colonized with lichen & mosses, then use them to create 'landscapes'. It is art(part of my portfolio) but i would not call them saikei, I will post a pic of one when i can access my files again.
Pup, you have offended a lot of koreans, they love their cycad bonsai & many rival the japanese trees for age & sheer mind numbing scope.
Craig, what is the second pic of? A wattle perhaps? I would definitely call that bonsai & in many ways is a better fit of a plant styled by man to represent a tree in miniature that is artistic yet shows no real sign of mans hand.
Ron, I watch that video & all i see is loads of future dead potensai and another crop of new bonsai folk turned off the art.
Joel, go out along any coastline, or any rugged mountain range and you will find many trees that put Kimura's trees to shame.
Jamie, "there are trees that can be collected from the wild that have attributes of bonsai but generally need to be unlocked" this goes against the styling to look like a tree in nature. "nothing comes out of nature fitting our perceptions of what a bonsai is so we alter it"
jstorm, you have hit the mark. What determines sizing is the convenience factor to move & work a tree. There are many trees under 1m that are 2,3 & even 4 man trees. There are also many trees to be seen that are up around the 1.5m size & even bigger. I have seen some that are approaching 8' (2.4m), they are most definitely bonsai, by my definition & also by the japanese & chinese peoples.
Fashion also plays a big part in size (and styling), i read an article in BF recently that was dealing with the restyling of a very old tree to reduce its height from around 1m to under 60cm. As the artist stated, it was being done purely because trees of this size are more fashionable at the present time. What happens when the fashion changes again, you cant replace wood thats been removed.
All just my 2cents.
Matt
42 Mice ~Imperfection
"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." ~ Vernon Sanders Law
"All the knowledge I possess everyone else can acquire, but my heart is all my own." ~ Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
"Bonsai becomes great when growers start trees they know they will never see in a pot"
A bonsai is a tree or a shrub in a pot that HAS BEEN STYLED and has balance, proportion and harmony. It may or may not follow the accepted guidelines for styling but can still be considered a bonsai if it exhibits BPH. Like anything there will be tastes for all types of styling and what is unacceptable to one can be beautiful in another's eyes. But the tree must be more than a plant put in a pot although it is possible to select a specimen that is so well balanced itself that it can almost immediately become a bonsai .... or be the result of years and years of training.
I feel it is inherently wrong to think because a tree grows wild and shaggy in the wild that that is acceptable in a pot. As soon as a tree is removed from the wild and put in a bonsai situation it must tell a story, convey an image. It is a well known fact that a tree species can have different growth habits in different habitats and a bonsai must display an artistry that looks natural and not contrived but always artistic. A bonsai is a role model for wild trees.
A bonsai is a tree or a shrub in a pot that HAS BEEN STYLED
with you.
I d believe that an unstyled tree can be put into a composition and be artistically pleasing. Take the tree that Jamie posted earlier of the upright juniper. A true artist can put that on a slab and with good placement of accents and landscape could make a very artistic and believable scene. Now this may technically be called another name besides bonsai but I am talking in general sense of Bonsai.
From Your Comments though I would expand on my first answer and say Bonsai is
Art that tells the story of a tree.
So any tree that is put into a pot will not be called bonsai unless it has had artistic thought put into telling the story of the tree. This can be any size tree you like.
It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
I do not disagree with your comment - 'an unstyled tree can be put in a composition and be artistically pleasing'. And why? Because that tree has balance, proportion and harmony inherent in its particular growth pattern. But that is a fairly rare tree. I put a stock tree in a bonsai pot, did a light prune, let the foliage thicken just a tad and put it in a major competition within months and won. Not impressed as my entry next to it had been worked on for years and didn't get a pat on the foliage pad. But I was lucky in my selection and the little tree told a plausible story from day 1. Two years later and I'm still working on the other tree which is lovely, but just not quite there, not quite fully in tune - harmony and proportion are there but the balance is still a bit under developed. This is what makes bonsai fun albeit occasionally frustrating. But the baeckea's slower development is more to do with my not having had sufficient forward vision with this tree and working with its style a little bit by guess and by golly. I saw the light several months ago, removed a lot of the apex and soon its new persona will be established. I might add... the instant bonsai bored me after a couple of years and it has a new home while all the work I have done on the baeckea has given the tree a firm hold on my heart and a permanent place in my collection.
Last edited by MelaQuin on February 24th, 2010, 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Heres one of my 'landscapes' I used it as part of my application for a fine arts course. Its composed of a piece of decomposed seating foam, stone from vic gold country, runner, rusted T-pipe joiner and plastic dolls hand. It is in its dry state in this photo, when its had rain for a few days it comes alive.
lost dolly1.JPG
Art but not saikei
Matt
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42 Mice ~Imperfection
"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." ~ Vernon Sanders Law
"All the knowledge I possess everyone else can acquire, but my heart is all my own." ~ Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
"Bonsai becomes great when growers start trees they know they will never see in a pot"
Pup
I couldnt work it out. Thank God you cleared that up for me Pup 
