Defining what makes a bonsai, a bonsai.

[MattA]

Hi all,

Was having a conversation with a non bonsai friend about a plant in his garden that he felt would be ideal for me. "its a perfect windswept tree, I can see it in a nice bonsai pot" On further probing it turned out this melaleuca was almost 8' wide & about 3.5' high. I told him it was just a tad too big for me, even tho i do like the bigguns. Great potential in the lower trunk so it will receive some work to try to get branching closer in to the base & also get some roots in close.

Anyways it got me thinking about sizing, how big is too big? Also in general what it is that marks the divide between a small plant in a pot & a bonsai. Would be really interested in others views, especially some of our more knowledgable members.

While we are bantering about on this, can anyone identify this plant? It was somehow missed at the back of the seedling bench & has lived on air & water & thats about all. I know it is not something you could call bonsai, or is it? Threw it in this pot to complete the effect.

Matt

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[Bretts]

Art makes it bonsai.

[Jamie]

Art makes it bonsai.

that is honestly the shortest response i have ever seen you reply with on such an interesting topic! whats going on Brett???

i think it is a little bit more than art, there is a saying in bonsai- "dont make a tree look like a bonsai, make a bonsai look like a tree" or something along those lines, i am pretty sure thats it though. i think this somes it up in a sense that what we are trying to acheive is a visualisation of a tree in a miniture/smaller form than its full grown counter part, its not that it is a dwarfed species, or genetically done, or even cruel to get a tree to be a bonsai.
i dont think you can stick a shrub in a nice pot and call it bonsai, far from it, this question delves into a lot of other things before we can understand it all.
to put things in short it is a tree that would naturally grow to its normal full size in "normal" conditions, but we as the "artist" develop it to be a tree that mimics or resembles its full grown counterparts in a miniture form, with final displays in a pot.
size can be considered aswell, we see miniture trees, less than an inch tall as bonsai, all the way through to over a metre tall or more that still resemble that shape and refinement of there established full grown counter parts with human visualisation inputted to determine how the tree will be grown.


i will keep it at that for now

jamie

[Bretts]

that is honestly the shortest response i have ever seen you reply with on such an interesting topic! whats going on Brett???

That explains it all for me. An expansion of this answer is likely to become corrupted and actually limit it's parameters.

i dont think you can stick a shrub in a nice pot and call it bonsai, far from it, this question delves into a lot of other things before we can understand it all.

My answer disagrees with you Jamie Picking a certain shrub and sticking it in a certain pot with certain ground cover and maybe some other props to compliment the composition can definatly be bonsai in my eyes. There is no rule that a certain amount of work must be done to a tree or shrub before it can be called bonsai.

i think it is a little bit more than art, there is a saying in bonsai- "dont make a tree look like a bonsai, make a bonsai look like a tree" or something along those lines, i am pretty sure thats it though. i think this somes it up in a sense that what we are trying to acheive is a visualisation of a tree in a miniture/smaller form than its full grown counter part, its not that it is a dwarfed species, or genetically done, or even cruel to get a tree to be a bonsai.

In my opinion a bonsai doesn't HAVE to look like a real tree
It is simply art with trees in pots.

[anttal63]

Just another can of worms fellas!

[MattA]

Just another can of worms fellas!

It was an attempt at starting a legitimate thread.. sorry you feel this way. It seems if your not one of the elite (who often have had very little REAL experience) your postings are not valid.

BTW no one has made any attempt to identify the plant ... its watermelon

Back to my corner.

Matt

[anttal63]

Matt theres no need to be that sens ative. There was no personal attack in my response at all. As for experience its always questionable.

[Jamie]

matt, i didnt even see the water melon when i posted my response, i was wondering what you was talking about actually.
my internet is slowed at the moment so that may be the reason too.

i think it is a legitimate thread that could be quite fulfilling.

[Bretts]

We have tried to define the Elite of Australia but thre where no takers

[MattA]

i think it is a legitimate thread that could be quite fulfilling.

That was my hope.

Antonio, i dont take it personally. I took it as it was intended. you see no legitimacy in discussing the question posed... thats fine... as such it is best as mother always said "if you dont have anything of worth to say, dont say anything at all"

Matt

As for experience its all relative and imo best gained for oneself instead of from others.

[Jamie]

just on that watermelon by the way, personally i wouldnt call it bonsai, but thats my opinion

[Bretts]

As for experience its all relative and imo best gained for oneself instead of from others.

Thats the spirit Matt

[anttal63]

You have percieved me incorrectly again and i do appologise, your thread is extremely legitimate but has the potential to open a can of worms, is what i meant.
Now i will get back in my corner, bye.

[MattA]

Jamie i wouldnt call it bonsai either. Tho i have heard a definition of bonsai that would, "Any plant being grown to no more than 1/6th its true natural size" given that the fruit is startin to ripen & the vine is nowhere near true natural size.....

Anttal i thought the idea of a discussion forum was to open those cans of worms & drag each worm out for a full detailed analysis. If its just for showing off our finds & general day to day goings on with the growing of bonsai what do we gain?

As an addendum, I have had numorous discussions over the years about the upper limits of what can legitimately be called a bonsai. Again that 1/6th rule could be used and end up with trees 10 or 20ft high. I know in japan & china there are some mammoth trees approaching the 2mtr mark & even bigger but are they still bonsai or are they just decorative potted plants? This 1/6th bit would also rule out the use of miniature varieties as they are often growing to there true size even as bonsai.

Matt

[Jamie]

Tho i have heard a definition of bonsai that would, "Any plant being grown to no more than 1/6th its true natural size" given that the fruit is startin to ripen & the vine is nowhere near true natural size.....

i havent heard this, but i cant say i agree either. could you refernece this quote for us mate? i find that it is hard to say that any plant if growing 1/6th its natural size as a definition of bonsai, in my eyes this statement isnt exactly right. (this is gonna be a big topic)

please correct me if i am wrong but there are so many guidelines for bonsai that it can be infuriating but to have a greater understanding of them, which i am not claiming i do, far from it, would allow us to look at this and clearly see it isnt a bonsai, maybe translated bonsai to english being pot to plant (roughly)
then this could be called a potted plant, but i dont think the term bonsai should be used for a watermelon personally.

as for the upper limits of size i find a very open mind helps, but to be a bonsai i think to get technical it should at least be in a pot, not a area of ground that has been raised to imitate a pot. as lovely as those massive trees are and how much they look like bonsai i think i would call them landscape trees.

i think the 1/6th of the natural tree is a bit odd, i have heard of trunk to height ratio and supposedly 6 to 1 is perfect but in modern times 10-1 and 12-1 have been accepted, or at the other end of the scale in the sumo style of 3-1 or 2-1. i do feel this topic is of a personal preference and each person is gonna have something different to say.

i also think bonsai is of personal choice which will bring different opinions on this, where i like one thing someone else might hate it, but is that tree that one person likes and the other person doesnt still considered bonsai by both?


jamie