let's talk about bonsai nurseries

[Dario]

I do agree though, I walk into some places and see the price they are asking and can not work out how they justify the price they ask (poor quality stock). I am more than happy to pay for quality stock when I can afford it as it can knock years of the growing time for me.

Josh

Interesting thread!
Hi Josh, hope you are well mate.
I am thinking about garden centre when I say this (not a bonsai nursery) but I guess the same applies...
I am not justifying the prices that are charged etc but it is interesting from a small business perspective.
There is a difference in prices when visiting a wholesale nursery (stock only available to those that run their own business) and a retail nursery. I recently learnt from people in the business that there is often a price mark up of 100% between the two.
This is put down to the fact that a retail nursery buys the stock from the wholesale nursery and then has to factor many things into the profit margin they make when selling the stock on to the customer.
They have to pay rent, pay their staff, cost of electricity, pots, soil, tools equiptment etc along with the maintenance of the equiptment and machinery etc, they also need to factor in loss of stock into their pricing such as if the stock doesn't sell or if it dies etc.
There are so many costs related to running a business and at the end of the day they also need to make a profit for themselves too.
I realise that I am stating the obvious, but I am just pointing out that there are a lot of hidden costs that the consumer is not always aware of.
This is a general comment and I agree that pricing should reflect the stock quality but there is more to it than that when running a business.
Josh your comment got me thinking and I am in no way having a go at you.
Cheers, Dario.

[Josh]

I do agree though, I walk into some places and see the price they are asking and can not work out how they justify the price they ask (poor quality stock). I am more than happy to pay for quality stock when I can afford it as it can knock years of the growing time for me.

Josh

Interesting thread!
Hi Josh, hope you are well mate.
I am thinking about garden centre when I say this (not a bonsai nursery) but I guess the same applies...
I am not justifying the prices that are charged etc but it is interesting from a small business perspective.
There is a difference in prices when visiting a wholesale nursery (stock only available to those that run their own business) and a retail nursery. I recently learnt from people in the business that there is often a price mark up of 100% between the two.
This is put down to the fact that a retail nursery buys the stock from the wholesale nursery and then has to factor many things into the profit margin they make when selling the stock on to the customer.
They have to pay rent, pay their staff, cost of electricity, pots, soil, tools equiptment etc along with the maintenance of the equiptment and machinery etc, they also need to factor in loss of stock into their pricing such as if the stock doesn't sell or if it dies etc.
There are so many costs related to running a business and at the end of the day they also need to make a profit for themselves too.
I realise that I am stating the obvious, but I am just pointing out that there are a lot of hidden costs that the consumer is not always aware of.
This is a general comment and I agree that pricing should reflect the stock quality but there is more to it than that when running a business.
Josh your comment got me thinking and I am in no way having a go at you.
Cheers, Dario.

Hi Dario,
When's that dig coming up mate Haha. I understand and agree with what your saying re the cost if running a business and as I said, I'm more than happy to pay for trees that are worth it but some are not. I know a local nursery here has a trident with a bit of wire on it and want $290 for it. It has reverse taper, NO branch structure and no ramification. So what makes it a bonsai...the pot. I bought a juniper some time back that was planted deep to hide the reverse taper, it had nearly 10cm of trunk under the soil. This is the type of poor stock I'm talking about.
I wish I had more money to spend as I would be down seeing Tien every week
I don't mind paying good money for Tien's trees as I know the top and the roots are worked evenly.

Josh.

[JaseH]

Well I spent the weekend visiting a couple nursery's. I'm new to Bonsai so am soaking up as much info as I can. Which means looking at a lot of trees, getting a feel for how certain tree's are trained, asking a lot of basic questions and trying not to buy every immature stick with a bend I see!

I think I mentioned earier in the thread, my closest nursery's are Bonsai Art and Garden World. BA's my regular, Garden World I just go to occasionally to admire the old tree's. I also tend to keep an eye out for anything in the normal garden nurseries that I think may have some potential. But after acquiring a few of these I'm starting to see the advantages of buying stock from a bonsai nursery - especially if I am going out specifically looking to buy a tree. My non bonsai nursery purchases are usually spur of the moment and cheap buys.

On saturday I found myself in the neighbourhood of Chojo Feature Trees so made sure I popped in for a look. I really liked this place! Jeff was there and welcomed me as I came in - plenty of potted trees on display, nice atmosphere up there in the hills, quite a nice selection of pre-bonsai stock too, most of which looked to have interest and potential, not just there filling table space because its the correct species for bonsai. I'm interested in Cedars at the moment so asked Jeff about some he had there and ended up having a good chat for a while - if I didnt have somewhere else to get to I could have easily hung around shooting the breeze and discussing trees a lot longer. Jeff has a genuine enthusiasm for bonsai and it shows, needless to say I ended up taking home a tree. I wish Chojo was closer as I could see myself popping in regularly - or maybe its a good thing that it isnt. Jeff said there is still some work to do on the place so I'll look forward to heading back soon to see how its coming along.

I'd been hearing a lot of good things about Bonsai Sensation and its not that far from me so decided today to go and take a look. I must thank Tien for taking the time to show me around as I believe he had somewhere else he was meant to be! Wow, a lot of quality trees. So much to take in. Once again Tien was more than happy to chat about the trees and show me things I might be interested in. For the new bonsai enthusiast like me I think this willingness to share information and spend time engaging the customer is nearly as important as the quality of the stock. Not that Teins stock is lacking quality! The place is amazing. I'll definitely be heading back there to pickup a tree or two once I decide what I need next.

The only other bonsai nursery that I'd checked out lately I wasnt overly impressed with - I wont mention the name as I may have simply caught them on a bad day but the one tree I asked about, a little eucalyptus, I was quoted a very high price. The person running the show on the day didnt come across as that approachable and I left feeling a little dissapointed with the place.

[bonsaisensation]

hi everyone
John H who works here once said to me when i was thinking about increasing the price of some trees:" you can't put the price up every time we worked on a tree. because if that's the case, some of my tree would have worth $20,000 because i work on my trees everyday...........".
one time he got upset with me when he wanted to buy a seed grown yatsubusa japanese black pine from me and i quoted him $100. i later thought about how i come to that price: i bought the tree three years ago and i have paid him to work on it twice. each time took one and a half hours to two hours due to to abundance of new buds of this variety. that would mean the tree costed me 3-4 hours of his wage and i can tell you it's more than what i was selling it for.

someone said to me the other day "its hard to make your money back with bonsai". it is true because we, i mean everyone of you out there, constantly work on our trees. especially in my case, paying someone to help me with the operation of a nursery. but hey, what the heck, i happen to be, the same goes out to a lot of you out there, the bloody idiot who doesn't care because i love bonsai too much. more importantly, i'd like to see the level of bonsai grow in this country and i think with help of all of you, we can get somewhere.

regards

[Jow]

Perhaps a stock growing workshop would be benificial?

thanks Joe, would you like to elaborate on that idea?

Well Tien i tend to think that it is all good and well to knock the quality of things we have here as long as you are actively doing something to rectify the problem.

Many hobbyist want stock like that in Japan and else where, which is fair enough, but they then don't put any effort in to righting things them selves.

I think if a nursery started a growers club, where they taught how to grow stock and then had in place a method for purchasing / trading supplies for customers excess each year they would benefit everyone. The more hands that are growing the more varied stock being produced and the less space a nursery needs to occupy to have stock being grown on.

I think growing shohin would be a very good way to start as they take a little less time to develop.

The hobby grower could keep one or two of say 50 trees they produce a year and this would keep them in wire as a trade for the other 48 for example. The hobby grower then doesn't have to take risks that are associated with private selling and they can fund their yearly hobby costs or i guess even be sold on a commission basis.

Of course for this to work there would need to be some good training done by the nursery on how to grow things that sell but i think if the nursery ran the program and that the participants would then be accepted as trading partners when their stock started coming on people would be interested in paying for a few classes. There is probably a 3-5 year start up time frame but as long as the growers were planting new seed/ cuttings every year then supply would be good and the nursery would have mature stock to sell and not waste space with growing beds etc.

Not sure if it would ever get off the ground but this is how a lot of the nurseries in japan operate.

[GavinG]

Is it worth growing and training 50 trees just so you can keep one or two that you have grown yourself anyway, and get some wire? I don't understand what's in it for the hobbyist.

Gavin

[Jow]

Is it worth growing and training 50 trees just so you can keep one or two that you have grown yourself anyway, and get some wire? I don't understand what's in it for the hobbyist.

Gavin

Usually to get a couple of good trees you need to grow a volume of trees. This is what most backyard growers do and most end up finding it hard to off-load the excess (expecially if they are doing a batch each year). The nursery would cover perhaps wire, provide store credit or even cash etc, in return for a safe and guarenteed way to clear the yard of the hobby grower's excess. (once you have chosen the years best tree you then have 49 trees cluttering the bench).

Most people who backyard grow do so any way, they enjoy seeing a tree grow from seed and be shaped in to potential stock. they of course are interested in getting bonsai out of the stock but the process of growing them is as much an enjoyable aspect of the hobby as the finished trees. To have a easy way to get the hobby to pay for itself and even make a profit without having to invite strangers into your yard and or organise sales i think would be benifitial. I know some people who trade backyard stock occasionally with a nursery for pots and they seem happy to do this.

It also allows people to specialise in a certain species and get very good at producing this rather than having to become a jack of all species.

Just an idea.

[Isitangus]

If I had 50 or 100 plants that I had grown that were extra to my needs could I turn up to a bonsai nursery and try to sell them?

[stocaz]

hi everyone
i thought i'd start a discussion on bonsai nurseries.
first question: when was the last time you visited a bonsai nursery and when was the last time you made any purchase to financially support the people who dedicate full-time or part-time to the art that we enjoy and appreciate?

would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Hey Tien,

Pleasure meeting you the other day, great advice & quality stock
Extremely happy with my purchase

Ross

[Matthew]

Is it worth growing and training 50 trees just so you can keep one or two that you have grown yourself anyway, and get some wire? I don't understand what's in it for the hobbyist.

Gavin

Usually to get a couple of good trees you need to grow a volume of trees. This is what most backyard growers do and most end up finding it hard to off-load the excess (expecially if they are doing a batch each year). The nursery would cover perhaps wire, provide store credit or even cash etc, in return for a safe and guarenteed way to clear the yard of the hobby grower's excess. (once you have chosen the years best tree you then have 49 trees cluttering the bench).

Most people who backyard grow do so any way, they enjoy seeing a tree grow from seed and be shaped in to potential stock. they of course are interested in getting bonsai out of the stock but the process of growing them is as much an enjoyable aspect of the hobby as the finished trees. To have a easy way to get the hobby to pay for itself and even make a profit without having to invite strangers into your yard and or organise sales i think would be benifitial. I know some people who trade backyard stock occasionally with a nursery for pots and they seem happy to do this.

It also allows people to specialise in a certain species and get very good at producing this rather than having to become a jack of all species.

Just an idea.

Jow
totally agree with you. I have about 50 growing atm in the ground of various species and i reckon 3 are cracker (banksia serrata, 2 with good possibilities (tridents) and the rest not my standard but i think most i could move on for the right price. Since this is only my forth year ground growing it has been a interesting learning curb

[lackhand]

Is it worth growing and training 50 trees just so you can keep one or two that you have grown yourself anyway, and get some wire? I don't understand what's in it for the hobbyist.

Gavin

Usually to get a couple of good trees you need to grow a volume of trees. This is what most backyard growers do and most end up finding it hard to off-load the excess (expecially if they are doing a batch each year). The nursery would cover perhaps wire, provide store credit or even cash etc, in return for a safe and guarenteed way to clear the yard of the hobby grower's excess. (once you have chosen the years best tree you then have 49 trees cluttering the bench).

Most people who backyard grow do so any way, they enjoy seeing a tree grow from seed and be shaped in to potential stock. they of course are interested in getting bonsai out of the stock but the process of growing them is as much an enjoyable aspect of the hobby as the finished trees. To have a easy way to get the hobby to pay for itself and even make a profit without having to invite strangers into your yard and or organise sales i think would be benifitial. I know some people who trade backyard stock occasionally with a nursery for pots and they seem happy to do this.

It also allows people to specialise in a certain species and get very good at producing this rather than having to become a jack of all species.

Just an idea.

Jow, you've hit on an idea that I've been kicking around lately. Having people help out like this or doing other things (early wiring, root pruning and repotting, weeding, digging from grow beds, etc) in exchange for bonsai lessons and/or some free or steeply discounted stock might be beneficial to both parties. Imagine if bonsai lessons were completely free with the only condition that you had to wire say 20 trees, and then you got to choose one to keep? I would love that as I get more experience and most likely a better tree for a price I can afford, whereas the nursery owner gets 19 trees wired up to grow on in exchange for one tree. In the meantime, the nursery owner is also developing the market as people will learn the value of buying better stock once they get a chance to work with it and see it develop.

I think this would also help newbies overcome some fear and frustration. I believe one reason people don't buy better stock to start is that they're afraid to kill it, or don't know what to do with it. It's easier mentally to do your first root prune on a $10 purchase from the big shed than a $150 tree you've just stretched the budget for. But then starting with poor stock leads to poor trees, and some will give up out of frustration as they look at amazing bonsai, then eye their cheap Bunnings twig-in-a-pot and realize it will take at least a decade before their twig becomes anything close to that. I know my first go at bonsai died as quickly as the cheap trees I butchered, and it took me years of just keeping a ficus in a pot alive before I finally decided to give it another go. Again, keeping people interested and learning quickly benefits all involved.

It would take some work to iron out the details, and a level of commitment from those who want to work with a nursery in this way, but it's an interesting thought and one I think could work.

[Scott Roxburgh]

I like Joe’s idea of an Bonsai growing co-op/club, and have discussed this with a few Ausbonsai’ers on previous occasions. Getting some nurseries in for distribution, support, and education would definitely help the cause. I also like the idea of having an experienced Japanese grower come over and do seasonal workshops, but am unsure of the feasibility of this.

Some of the issues that I think need to be addressed are:

Hobbyists:
1. Without ‘skin in the game’ many hobbyists would lapse and not do the required work to get the stock to where it needs to be;
2. Growing space and materials (water/fertiliser) are limited compared to hoobyists enthusiasm;
3. Low level of knowledge to get the stock to where it is needs to be;

Nurseryman:
1. Initial setup costs;
2. Growing space and material (water/fertiliser)requirements;

The following would go some way to addressing the issues above:
1. A formalised program structure with routine work done each season through a grow club at a specific nursery. Growing Shohin in pots, rather than large trees in the ground will address the time issue. A sign up commitment with an initial capital funding requirement from the hobbyist (for tube stock/cuttings and fert/water costs), say a program fee for tuition.
2. The economies of scale from a commercial nursery watering/fertilizing would be the way to go with this. It would also give a place to meet regularly to conduct the workshops.
3. Knowledge would be provided by the nurseryman/international stock growers.

To gauge hobbyist interest in participating in this form of a growing co-op, I supplied a number of JBP seedlings to the Canberra Bonsai Society for a Shohin JBP growing project starting this growing season. Obviously early days but the take up was good, around 100 seedlings. There is interest in this sort of scheme but not necessarily the knowledge or skill to get it done in private backyards. I think that a formal program to develop stock is a current gap in the (albeit niche) bonsai market.

[bonsaisensation]

If I had 50 or 100 plants that I had grown that were extra to my needs could I turn up to a bonsai nursery and try to sell them?

hi Isitangus
i guess you could always turn up and TRY to sell them. whether they will sell or not, depend on the needs of the bonsai nurseries. i know for a fact that some bonsai nurseries do not grow their own trees and buy trees from others to sell. you would have better luck with those.
in my situation, growing and training a few thousand trees each year, obviously i become very specific with what i want here at the nursery. the only trees that i would buy other than from my normal suppliers of tube stock, would be from the staff who works here, for a simple fact that we share and value the same ideas of how bonsai stock should be grown and they know how to grow them.
i have been thinking about the ideas from Jow, lackhand and Scott. the current program that i run here at the nursery is like this:
i have 4 regular "helpers" who come and do works here for credit. they each were given an agreed hourly rate of credit to make purchases on bonsai stock, tools, pots..........whatever they want really. i think it's a win/win situation where they get what they want and i get more work done around the place. more importantly they get to see what goes into growing bonsai stock and gain the hands-on experience of what is done to the trees. we have spent the last three days cutting new shoots and thinning out needles on black pines. one of the "helper"s job is to do that to 1000 of the five year old black pines. obviously today i gave him a break from that because i can see he's had enough . but its this kind of repetitive work on trees that makes all the bonsai basics "automatic". i know i became quite confident with performing this kind of work after doing what he did several years ago.

now, i can see most bonsai nurseries would be quite happy to offer this kind of program to anyone who is keen. its now a matter of switching "doing all the odd jobs around the nursery" to "training bonsai stock from scratch".

any more thoughts on the ideas provided by Jow, Lackhand and Scott?

[bonsaisensation]

Hi everyone
I thought I'd bump up this thread since there have been a bit of discussion on bonsai nurseries lately.
I know joe has been doing something at club levels to start the training process of JBP. It'd be interesting to know if anything else has happened with regards to growing better stock, finding the supply to your demand, creating the supply to your demands.....

Regards

Tien

[Inspired]

Hi Tien

Do you have good sized Chamaecyparises?

Definitely one of my favourites but so hard to find anyone with decent size stock of this specie