Things we don't much do in bonsai. Why?

[TimS]

Time to hand the thread over to the admins and cleanse it with a flamethrower, maybe after a couple of days send in an exploratory team to check for signs of life

[Rory]

Actually I think having anthonyW in the natural competition is awesome.
I encourage everyone to showcase their talent.
And if anthonyW wins a prize in the competition then he might be teaching us something equally important.

I hope this thread isn’t locked, as I love hearing what Mike and Gav and others input is.
They are very astute in this style and I admire their talent and thoughts immensely.

Hopefully the Mods see the comments as constructive and a little funny at times too.
I laughed.

[Ryceman3]

I reckon with nearly 50 replies in less than a week and over 1000 views we can all agree this thread has piqued some interest. Love the Scots pine treeman, it’s not your only bit of gold but it is a thing of beauty... and pretty natural.
Who knows what is next - close the thread now and we’ll never know!

[Boics]

Unfortunately or Fortunately I've been around to see so many of these similar threads end up in Bonsai heaven.
The good ol' Art, Natural, Aussie threads always hit a raw nerve with some folk!

Do what you want peoples. Great thread. Great Topic!
If we all did the same thing, had the same ideas, same goals and interpretation I can guarantee you one thing - Bonsai would be predictable and BORING!
So Boring that most (if not all) of us would'nt even be on a forum like this to debate.

So get creative, break moulds, inspire yourself and you may very well inspire others.

[Piscineidiot]

From what I have read/watched, I think the more 'traditional' bonsai forms were first born out of horicultural pragmatism:

A miniaturised, heavily restricted tree needs a lot more things working to its advantage than one growing in the wild.

Over time, I guess artists being what they are, started moulding the trees within the parameters that still allow a tree that's been growing on a cliff for 1000 years to survive in a shallow, clay pot.

Now, as people's competency, knowledge and confidence are increasing, we see people aspiring to emulate nature more closely (which I believe is actually harder to do at a small scale, and takes more maintenance).

I honestly suspect it would take MORE work to look after a nursery full of more 'naturally styled' trees than ones that look more like traditional 'bonsai'. Simply for the following reasons:

- Branches/foliage in a natural arrangement are photosynthetically LESS efficient, particularly when we are really trying to make more out of less foliage/branch
- Styling with all those acute, complex angle changes is hard to do with a lot of species without damaging the tree (clip and grow isn't always the most appropriate method for some species)
- Routine maintenance like cleaning and rewiring becomes more difficult if all your fine branching and foliage etc. is on every possible plane.
- All of the above becomes harder as you try to achieve smaller trees, particularly since in most species, the leaves don't reduce in a linear fashion (let's be honest). I've seen VERY few bonsai much shorter than 80cm that truly had what I would consider aesthetically pleasing naturalistic forms, and that includes species with foliage that dwarves readily.

I certainly commend those who manage to do all of the above, but at my level, I'm still busy trying to master keeping them alive and progressing.

[GavinG]

anthonyW: what you might have thought was funny just comes across as abuse in print. And yes, I'll keep posting my BS. Anything useful to contribute?

TimS and others: I repeat, I made no mention of "natural style", there's just a lot of stuff out there that looks interesting that we can use.

Mike: the final word (or 28) has indeed been spoken. I shall indeed Follow your Precepts to the Letter (or768) O Master. Good trees, nature reduced to its essence, without following a formula. Keep 'em coming.

"Nature reduced to its essence" - that might be my definition of bonsai. Or whatever the hell it is that we do.

Piscineidiot: whenever you prune a tree, you make it "photosynthetically less efficient" - it's just not an issue. Clip and grow can make interesting angles, but it's not compulsory. See what you can do. "Natural" does not mean chaotic, overcrowded, messy or "on every possible plane". It can be done gracefully. Keep at it. As I said on March 23, maybe I'm not looking for "natural", more "interesting".

Please post photos. Too many words.

Gavin

[treeman]

Maybe its time this thread was locked.

Rubbish. This is exactly the kind of mentality we need to avoid. It leads to the normalization and eventual acceptance that the concept of outside control is good. Marxist nonsense which has been proved time and time again to not work and lead to misery and resentment. An example of this can be seen with the current buzz word ''diversity''. Those who push the idea are all for diversity of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender etc to the point where they now believe voices in technology should be non-binary. (just heard that this morning) However the problem with their concepts of course is made abundantly apparent when they rail against diversity of opinion which differs from their own. But getting back to bonsai, you cannot have a discussion of ideas about approach without someone finding something disagreeable. It's called life and should not be ''controlled''. If you disagree with an idea you should submit a counter argument, not seek to have the idea banned.

[Grant Bowie]

Maybe its time this thread was locked.

Rubbish. This is exactly the kind of mentality we need to avoid. It leads to the normalization and eventual acceptance that the concept of outside control is good. Marxist nonsense which has been proved time and time again to not work and lead to misery and resentment. An example of this can be seen with the current buzz word ''diversity''. Those who push the idea are all for diversity of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender etc to the point where they now believe voices in technology should be non-binary. (just heard that this morning) However the problem with their concepts of course is made abundantly apparent when they rail against diversity of opinion which differs from their own. But getting back to bonsai, you cannot have a discussion of ideas about approach without someone finding something disagreeable. It's called life and should not be ''controlled''. If you disagree with an idea you should submit a counter argument, not seek to have the idea banned.

I totally agree with Treeman here. Many years ago a visiting Japanese Bonsai person said that figs were vulgar. Imagine where we would be without the beautiful figs we have as bonsai today. Should we grow them in a purely Japanese style, naturalistic style or whatever.If we had listened to only one person that would have been it; although of course it wouldnt because we love to experiment. In fact a lot of visiting bonsai people are impressed by our broad range of materials and styles which we have learnt the hard way; often starting with a seedling or cutting and then getting on with whatever vision of the future tree we have. Nothing is out of bounds in this department and the future will reveal the outcomes. We all have likes and dislikes of material and styles; but that is not heresy.

P.S. No one ever expected the Spanish Inquistion.

Cheers

Grant

[MJL]

My preference is that people play the topic not the person. Or in footy parlance ‘play the ball’.

Diversity of thought should be celebrated and embraced; of course this needs to be accompanied an open mind - not to agree per se but to at least respect other differing thoughts and opinions.

Anyway ... back to the topic - somewhere way back when - Gavin showed a picture of ground cover in one of his Bonsai pots. It got me thinking - that it could look really good when ground cover matched the leaf/size context of the potted tree. So, note to Mark, perhaps don’t throw those small leaves out when you clip or pinch your trees... box ‘em, dry ‘em, label ‘em and come show time - apply ‘em in context.

I also picked this up when walking the Hadley the Dog yesterday - pine needles under what I think are mature cedrus deodar. May look good if applied right?

IMG_0278.jpg

IMG_0277.jpg

In Brisbane on work this next few days. Walking this lunchtime it’s clear that .... I’m not in Kansas anymore ... wonderfully different trees to Melbourne’s city.



Bonsai teaches me patience.
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[wrcmad]

Rubbish. This is exactly the kind of mentality we need to avoid. It leads to the normalization and eventual acceptance that the concept of outside control is good. Marxist nonsense which has been proved time and time again to not work and lead to misery and resentment. An example of this can be seen with the current buzz word ''diversity''. Those who push the idea are all for diversity of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender etc to the point where they now believe voices in technology should be non-binary. (just heard that this morning) However the problem with their concepts of course is made abundantly apparent when they rail against diversity of opinion which differs from their own. But getting back to bonsai, you cannot have a discussion of ideas about approach without someone finding something disagreeable. It's called life and should not be ''controlled''. If you disagree with an idea you should submit a counter argument, not seek to have the idea banned.

Wow.
You and I have had a few disagreements on the topic of design over the years... although quite respectful disagreements.
However, we just found the most profound of common ground.
Couldn't agree with you more.

[tgward]

My impression -the shut down comment was floated because some of the comments were moving away from opinions on design and were seeming to move towards more personal attacks as has been seen here in the past --not because of differences in taste--remember folks it's all about the trees and not the personalitrees

[Sno]

I believe in diversity . Diversity of race ,religion ,sexual orientation I have no hang ups about . The more diversity the better as far as I'm concerned . Getting back to bonsai if we all followed someone's rules like being natural ,classical ,traditional or whatever rules that people want to restrict themselves too we would be bored silly . I have respect for all the above and I will listen to ideas but I will always follow my own path . I'll give it a rest now .

[baldtwitlion]

I believe in diversity . Diversity of race ,religion ,sexual orientation I have no hang ups about . The more diversity the better as far as I'm concerned . Getting back to bonsai if we all followed someone's rules like being natural ,classical ,traditional or whatever rules that people want to restrict themselves too we would be bored silly . I have respect for all the above and I will listen to ideas but I will always follow my own path . I'll give it a rest now .

Well said Sno
Thanks


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[Sammy D]

This is not natural for the species but man it sure does way in the favour of natural style being more interesting

Screenshot_20190322-131127_Messenger.jpg

Love this pic. And also believe natural style requires more wire and time than pom pom style.

Don't get me wrong I love both. Why can't we do and love both.

[dansai]

I've been thinking of one of my trees while reading this thread. I acquired it nearly a year ago because of its interesting and complex shape. I repotted it and gave it a little trim and it has grown gangbusters since. its had a few trims since and I gave it a cutback a few days ago. Having spoken to Gavin a number of times over the years, always an interesting conversation, there has been one thing stuck in my head about one way to approach "styling" a tree, that is - cut off all the boring bits. So with that in mind I started cutting into my tree.

Where there was foliage coming from 2 or more places in the same area, I only left the most interesting one and where branches where too long, I cut back to the most interesting side branch. Still a long way to go and I want to get some foliage a bit closer in in some areas. This method seems to work well with this tree as there is no way I could wire, or intentionally make the complex shape it has grown in. I tried to get some photos, but the 2d image loses a lot of the movement and detail and makes it look like a bit of a mess. This was the clearest one.

IMG_4173.jpg

And and Sammy, that's an awesome tree. Thanks for sharing.