Kokufu 2020

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

Gives me a chuckle that you have contributed nothing but criticism and disdain to such quality trees.

ahh...c'mon now...that statements not entirely true

Some very nice trees. The very first one is my firm favourite but I also love the shimpaku in your last set of pics. The cycad is fascinating.

Yes R3! thanks again for posting all your photos. I loved viewing your pictures. You rock!

[wrcmad]

Gives me a chuckle that you have contributed nothing but criticism and disdain to such quality trees.

ahh...c'mon now...that statements not entirely true

Yeah, your right. Not entirely. My bad.

[wrcmad]

A highlight of the trip:

The crew from Oz ... a group pic with the man himself.

Kobayashi3.jpg

[treeman]

wrcmad post_id=274708 time=1582264563

But it is only a mere opinion.

That's right.

Gives me a chuckle that you have contributed nothing but criticism and disdain to such quality trees

.

Reactionary and inaccurate. Just exactly what do you mean by ''contribute?''

And to call these trees "repulsive" not only sounds dumb, but gives me a sense that it is not really your true opinion, and instead some sort of underlying echo of past bad experiences or bitterness.

A load of nonsense.

It's a shame, and I wonder if actually seeing these trees in real life might change your assessment?

It's not a ''shame'' and the answer to your thought is no. The shame is that not more people can see thought it. I refer you to my avatar to help illustrate my point of view.
I'm sorry for mentioning that little pines with perfectly manicured domes of green repulse me. Maybe I should not say anything unless it's positive?
Nah stuff that. If someone goes so far as to spend countless hours carving jinns and sharis, to look as natural as possible and then top all that naturalness with a perfect, faultless, flawless, even dome with perfectly horizontal lower lines that you could use as a level for laying brickwork, and not a needle out of place - just what are they masters of? Technique? dedication? Big deal. People sometimes give blind, un-questioning respect to a tree just because it's Japanese. Great to learn technique from but if you want to go back to the original desire to bring the profundity of nature close to us, you should study the Literati and their philosophy rather that the popular commercial bonsai world. If you don't care that's fine as well but you should at least accept that there are other points of view that they have nothing to do with ''bitterness''.
Hope it still doesn't sound ''dumb''.

[MJL]

It's amazing how immersive computer games are these days .... I don't play it but I am pretty sure Ryan looks like a character from Minecraft... indeed, you all do!! Did you travel via the internet (Matrix style) .... From here and forever known as The Pixel Heads ...should be a name for a rock band. (PS - I understand the privacy piece ... just having a laugh.)

[TimS]

I’m really not a fan of the green helmet look, as much time and dedication as it may take.

It needs to be remembered that bonsai styling in Japan is influenced more by the economic drives of the customers than the artistic expression of the creator. Since the trees are largely owned by clients rather than the nursery, the master is restricted in what they can do to it, and most people who have spent 5-6 figures on a tree don’t want it drastically changed. They buy it with the intent to win the Kokufu, and if a tree in a green helmet design is what is required ( as it is at the moment) then you don’t want it utterly restyled in a way that reduces that chance of winning. If the nursery owns it and wants to sell it, then of course they would do a green helmet since that is the expectation of their customers.

Now we have a circular system where all trees are being styled of customers as green helmets because every client wants to buy every perfectly manicured green helmet tree made in hopes of winning awards. I think we in Australia are far more motivated by personal expression than the Japanese are.

Anyone who’s seen photos of videos of Kimura’s nursery will see entire areas dedicated to rock plantings because he knows the Chinese will snap them up.

It’s worth watching Bonsai Works of Divinity if anyone hasn’t already. It follows Shinji Suzuki in his 30’s I think, and in part of it he is deciding what to display at that year’s Sakufu-ten. He wants to show a white pine in a more naturalistic style, and a good client/ broker of his advises something along the lines of that to display that tree would be a personal statement, but it will never win. Sure enough a (very impressive) Ezo Matsu in a manicured style wins.

When every tree you create, irrespective of species, follows the same recipe of design, I think it’s important to step back and ask why. Like many other things in life, it’s all about what sells/ makes money.

[wrcmad]

Great to learn technique from but if you want to go back to the original desire to bring the profundity of nature close to us, you should study the Literati and their philosophy rather that the popular commercial bonsai world. If you don't care that's fine as well but you should at least accept that there are other points of view that they have nothing to do with ''bitterness''.
Hope it still doesn't sound ''dumb''.

Thanks for the better explanation.
That doesn't sound so dumb.
I do accept different opinions, as I accepted yours.
But as I have said before here, I don't accept calling anyone's work "repulsive" - that still sounds dumb.
You are right - I don't care much for literati.... and I care even less for windswept. But that is merely only my opinion. However, I have seen some cracking literati that I appreciate... but never in my life a repulsive one.

[wrcmad]

Anyone who’s seen photos of videos of Kimura’s nursery will see entire areas dedicated to rock plantings because he knows the Chinese will snap them up.
.....
When every tree you create, irrespective of species, follows the same recipe of design, I think it’s important to step back and ask why. Like many other things in life, it’s all about what sells/ makes money.

Spot-on there. Kobayashi was explaining to us that his biggest customer base has become the Chinese... and they like BIG trees.
So, he is having to develop more big trees to satisfy his clients. He had a black pine in the garden for a Chinese customer that was about 3 or 4 meters tall.
The professionals have to meet the market expectations.

[Ryceman3]

It's amazing how immersive computer games are these days .... I don't play it but I am pretty sure Ryan looks like a character from Minecraft... indeed, you all do!!

The simple fact of the matter is I am part of the witness protection program. Probably should have mentioned something earlier but I guess now is as good a time as any. In an ironic twist however everybody else in the group is a dentist ... so as it turns out none of us can show our face on camera!
But, since I'm as famous as I am (and also I guess because dentists are incredibly popular people), Mr Kobayashi was still keen to get a photo with us for his wall - we were all quite happy to oblige on this occassion.
Smile!

Disclaimer : it's best not to believe everything you read on the internet.

[MJL]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[treeman]

I’m really not a fan of the green helmet look, as much time and dedication as it may take.

It needs to be remembered that bonsai styling in Japan is influenced more by the economic drives of the customers than the artistic expression of the creator. Since the trees are largely owned by clients rather than the nursery, the master is restricted in what they can do to it, and most people who have spent 5-6 figures on a tree don’t want it drastically changed. They buy it with the intent to win the Kokufu, and if a tree in a green helmet design is what is required ( as it is at the moment) then you don’t want it utterly restyled in a way that reduces that chance of winning. If the nursery owns it and wants to sell it, then of course they would do a green helmet since that is the expectation of their customers.

Now we have a circular system where all trees are being styled of customers as green helmets because every client wants to buy every perfectly manicured green helmet tree made in hopes of winning awards. I think we in Australia are far more motivated by personal expression than the Japanese are.

Anyone who’s seen photos of videos of Kimura’s nursery will see entire areas dedicated to rock plantings because he knows the Chinese will snap them up.

It’s worth watching Bonsai Works of Divinity if anyone hasn’t already. It follows Shinji Suzuki in his 30’s I think, and in part of it he is deciding what to display at that year’s Sakufu-ten. He wants to show a white pine in a more naturalistic style, and a good client/ broker of his advises something along the lines of that to display that tree would be a personal statement, but it will never win. Sure enough a (very impressive) Ezo Matsu in a manicured style wins.

When every tree you create, irrespective of species, follows the same recipe of design, I think it’s important to step back and ask why. Like many other things in life, it’s all about what sells/ makes money.

Agreed Tim but it's not just as simple as what commerce dictates. Below is a perfect example. It's a stunning trunk on a red pine. What do we do with it? Put a green triangle at the end and Bob's your uncle. One of the main reasons this is done is that it programmed into us. Japanese or Westerners. We are unable to visualize a different configuration. (anything other that the green triangle seems wrong to us) We read words in the books like ''disorder'' and ''chaos''. When in reality there is nothing chaotic in nature. Another reason is that it's REALLY HARD to do even if we can visualize it because we need relinquish full control and expose ourselves to mistakes and the unknown.
The green triangle (and I still find myself falling back into it much to my disgust) is lazy, timid, and psychological barrier to more exciting possibilities.......I think it's wrong to assume that you have mastered bonsai if you manage to produce a perfect pine as you see in the Japanese shows. What you have actually done is join the club.
(Not that there's anything wrong with that)

redpine.JPG

[TimS]

Very good point Mike, we’ve definitely become programmed to automatically make green triangles. I’m guilty of this very thing no matter how much I try not to.

The whole left/back/right branch arrangement is another thing that annoys me as something people automatically do because the books say to. I don’t see many trees in nature making left/back/right branch structures in a radiating bicycle spoke fashion.

I was thinking about getting a bit of rough stock and making every decision as the opposite of what my automatic reaction is just to see what the outcome would be. Probably would look like a pig’s ear though.

Anyway I digress from the original point of the thread

[wrcmad]

The whole left/back/right branch arrangement is another thing that annoys me as something people automatically do because the books say to. I don’t see many trees in nature making left/back/right branch structures in a radiating bicycle spoke fashion.

I'm yet to see a Kokufu tree, or any other Japanese tree with this branch configuration either. I reckon left/back/right is a myth.

[wrcmad]

It's amazing how immersive computer games are these days .... I don't play it but I am pretty sure Ryan looks like a character from Minecraft... indeed, you all do!! Did you travel via the internet (Matrix style) .... From here and forever known as The Pixel Heads ...should be a name for a rock band. (PS - I understand the privacy piece ... just having a laugh.)

I started by hiding my ugly mug under some pixels.... then decided if was appropriate for me, then the others shouldn't be able to show me up, so they copped the pixel treatment too.

[Ryceman3]

I feel like I’ve heard this argument/statement about “naturally” styled trees and the “are we going to follow the Japanese” with their generic and un-natural approach that seems to currently be in favour. It is brought up regularly, almost monotonously, but I have to be honest... I don’t get it. I went to Kokufu. I saw the trees. They were awesome. I wanted to try and show others what I saw. I thought many would find them inspirational and I still think that’s the case.
So, what’s my point? Plenty of threads exist where we question bonsai styling and the relevance/ideology behind it. When I created this thread, I didn’t really want to make another one. I just wanted to show the trees I saw and people can make up their own mind.
I was worried about going to Kokufu in truth. I think I said just before I went in “This could be the most inspirational thing I have ever seen or the most depressing.... God I hope for the former”. Gladly, I left the exhibition feeling inspired.
In all sincerity- when it comes to styling, I don’t care. I saw what I saw... in real life and up close. I took pictures sure, and I want them to be reflective of the trees I saw... I did my best to make that so, but unless you see them in real life, you really haven’t seen them. I loved the whole experience at Kokufu. I have never seen trees presented at the same level here in Australia. I take that as a challenge for the future, maybe others see that differently. Whatever the case, my trees are probably more closely aligned to a “natural” style. Why? Honestly I can’t say, but I do know I would take pretty much any tree from that exhibition and proudly display it as my own... maybe even the palm zombie! In short, there is always a lot of diatribe that gets flung about but unless you’ve seen it, up close and personally... the rest is just people talking.
For me, it’s not about whether it’s “natural” or whatever the alternative is... it is 100% about the trees. It should always be about the trees and, luckily for me, my mind remains open enough to appreciate them on many levels, whether they be styled “natural” or otherwise. Damn they were good trees.