Bonsai - Its Art, Science, History and Philosophy by Deborah

[treeman]

G'day Treeman,
I take it that is the Koreshoff exhibit!?!
Can you put up the comparison also.


Cheers
Elmar

The pics are small and black and white but here is just one that looks to be a similar age:

http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATBeec ... Page2.html

[kcpoole]

Thanks for posting the the pics of the beech. I would have expected a more rounded canopy.
Pity we cannot see the ramification, but generally agree that there is nothing special about that example. Lovely one on Bonsai4me.
Be nice to see it now tho to compare.

Ken

[treeman]

Deborahs book is a distilation of all she learnt from her father, mother and her own thoughts, artistry and input. As such it it is a masterpiece.

Goodness me. Earlier it was ''second to none'' (which means ''the best''!) Now...it's a ''masterpiece''!
The fact that it is a distilation of all she learnt from her father etc etc etc does not make it a masterpiece.
This is the kind of meaningless hyberbole which adds nothing to the discussion.
What's going on? Why can't we stick to the facts. It's not a masterpiece and it is not second to none. Very far from it. These are words which are thrown around way to easily. If you like it, well fine but let's not be blinded by sentimentality. I picked up a copy and flicked through it when it was first released and even then I thought I could do without it.

[Pup]

Reading all of your comments here Mike ,I would like you to tel us all what books you would recommend as the Koreshoff publication are such rubbish according to you.Looking at the pictures posted,proves nothing without the article.

[treeman]

Reading all of your comments here Mike ,I would like you to tel us all what books you would recommend as the Koreshoff publication are such rubbish according to you.Looking at the pictures posted,proves nothing without the article.

Don't quote me as saying things I did not say. I never mentioned the word ''rubbish'' (facts only please)
I said ''the litterature I read from the Koreschoffs was not much chop IMO''
The picture I posted (I assume you mean the beech) proves everything. If you want to read the text go ahead but it's the usual waffle.

Books? I think I have seen them all at one stage or other but I don't buy how to books anymore. Most bonsai books written in the west (which I have seen) are a bit shallow . Some are so bad I wonder how they were ever published! The first book I bought on bonsai was one of the most inspiring to me. ''Four Seasons of Bonsai'' by Murata.
Mainly pictures but as bonsai is a visual art form, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Then I got ''Classic Bonsai of Japan'' This was the book which demonstrated what a REAL masterpiece was and after that, anything lesser would not inspire. So all the Japanese albums you can get are a must.

''The Art of Bonsai'' by Yoshimura is good for all the basics.

''Forest, Rock Planting & Ezo Spruce Bonsai'' by Kato gives a deep insight into that subject.

All the Japanese articles on ''how to'' in International Bonsai Mag.

The earlier Bonsai Today Mags are still very good.

There are not that many when you look closely!

There is probably good stuff on the web now too but I havn't looked

You can transfer all the Japanese information into growing Native plants without much problem.

[Rory]

Treeman (mike), I mean no disrespect to you.

Its just that I can't be the only one that sees the irony in describing Deborah Koreshoff's writing as juvenile or not much chop - then producing a picture of some random tree to prove that her entire life's work is discredited and is not worth reading - isn't in itself juvenile. Sorry, but it is a little ironic.

I am not trying to be insulting and I hope this doesn't come across this way. But by the definition of your very argument, you couldn't have possibly seen much of their work to say this. I certainly respect your opinion, but I am merely stating that with due respect, such a view should really be formulated once you have seen their work. You did explain yourself that you haven't read the book, nor spent more than a mere moment flicking through it. I honestly think you would change your mind had you visited their nursery Mike

When heavyweights like Grant or Pup talk, I listen. Their work stands testament. Disregarding personal emotions, one would think that if they hold the Koreshoffs efforts with such high regard, there is a reason to it.

So many of the trees that were held in the Koreshoffs personal collection were breath taking. I honestly wish you could have seen them, not for the sake of this thread, but for your own gain.

[Pup]

Mike fortunately for me I have all of the publications also easy access to a great deal of the Kokufu. Books and theJapanesemagazine that bonsai today and bonsai focus get two years after it is published. I do apologise for using the word rubbish. I find it hard to reconcile your comments to mean any thing different.just my

[EdwardH]

Mike, I used to visit the Korreshoff's nursery 4-5 times a year just to view their trees and always left inspired. They were always very welcoming and free with advice. If I remember correctly, Deborah's book was written primarily as her university thesis and was later published (with some modifications), hence the few pictures. They were pioneers in this country in regards to bonsai and did the hard yards in discovering how to grow Aussie natives as bonsai.
Every book you mention is Japanese, yet the Korreshoff's main influence was Chinese which has a very different feel to it. The Japanese is very formal whilst the Chinese is much more informal and naturalistic in comparison. Does this make one style better than another? No they are just different.
The only comment that I find really strange is how you said that you "flicked through the book" and made a judgement call on its quality. Last time I checked the only way to determine a book's worth is to actually read it but then I'm old fashioned as I prefer to read the text as opposed to simply look for glossy pictures.
My last comment on this thread is that we are all different and at different stages in our bonsai journey. As such our views change as to what is poor, good and great. This is true whether we are judging a book or a tree. I still remember the ultra basic books and sticks in pots that, back in the day, I thought were masterpieces

[treeman]

Its just that I can't be the only one that sees the irony in describing Deborah Koreshoff's writing as juvenile or not much chop - then producing a picture of some random tree to prove that her entire life's work is discredited and is not worth reading - isn't in itself juvenile. Sorry, but it is a little ironic.

You mean like pups reply to my elms

I'm sorry but I don't see the irony in this. As I said earlier, I feel (you may not) that I need to see only one or perhaps two trees someone has produced over an extended period and is happy enough to have a picture of it published in an International magazine, to determine in my own mind their level of artistic and technical achievement. I don't need to see the rest because i already know that their development will be similar or they would have been chosen in the first place.
Personally I would not be satisfied enough with that particular beech tree to even keep it - let alone exhibit it.
Obviously many would be and there lies the difference in perception. I am just stating my particular viewpoint. It is obvious that some people don't like it and disagree. This does not bother me in the least. I believe what my eyes tell me. There are other trees such as an old cedar I have seen as well as the results from demonstrations. Only mediocre in my eyes. So I repeat, judge by what they do not what they say/write.

I am not trying to be insulting and I hope this doesn't come across this way. But by the definition of your very argument, you couldn't have possibly seen much of their work to say this. I certainly respect your opinion, but I am merely stating that with due respect, such a view should really be formulated once you have seen their work. You did explain yourself that you haven't read the book, nor spent more than a mere moment flicking through it. I honestly think you would change your mind had you visited their nursery Mike

See above

When heavyweights like Grant or Pup talk, I listen. Their work stands testament. Disregarding personal emotions, one would think that if they hold the Koreshoffs efforts with such high regard, there is a reason to it.

I'm sure they have there reasons. I just don't happen to agree

So many of the trees that were held in the Koreshoffs personal collection were breath taking. I honestly wish you could have seen them, not for the sake of this thread, but for your own gain.

Therein lies the problem. What is breathtaing in one's eyes may not be in anothers'. I invite you to show me and change my mind.

[treeman]

Mike fortunately for me I have all of the publications also easy access to a great deal of the Kokufu. Books and theJapanesemagazine that bonsai today and bonsai focus get two years after it is published. I do apologise for using the word rubbish. I find it hard to reconcile your comments to mean any thing different.just my

Pup, For me to call a tree ''rubbish'' it would have to have been made with complete disregard and contempt for the artform. Like some of the stuff they call bonsai at Bunnings etc. That is rubbish. To call any tree which someone has put even a little effort into rubbish would be too much of an insult. We keep those thoughts to ourselves.

[Rory]

The picture I posted (I assume you mean the beech) proves everything. If you want to read the text go ahead but it's the usual waffle.

Mike,

I think the best way to convey to you why some people are 'surprised' by the comments made about the koreshoffs is best explained by using you as an example.

You recently posted a thread of 2 Chinese Elms that you have grown.
viewtopic.php?f=129&t=19903

You also recently posted a Port Jackson fig that you have grown.
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=19898

Now, if I was to show someone a link primarily to your first Chinese Elm in that thread, I could say that it doesn't have much chop at all, and is a very ordinary looking tree. It doesn't really show any talent of the grower, and in fact I don't think much at all of their skills based off of that Chinese Elm. I don't need to see anymore of their work as clearly this is enough to show me they are not very talented at all. However, that would be inappropriate and offensive, because not only am I judging a book by its cover, but I don't even know if the grower feels the tree is finished, or even remotely shows the quality of their collection, viewing only 1 out of 300 trees. I may not even like the tree but that is my opinion and I certainly wouldn't be making that assumption unless I had seen the majority of their work. I personally wouldn't feel qualified to make that call having trees that are not even show quality myself. It may be that other members dislike your efforts, but I would perhaps curb my comments and say that I feel 'that particular tree needs a complete restyle for this reason or that', as you actually expressed this yourself in an earlier post on this thread. I highly doubt that you could have visited her nursery and given a critique on all 300 of her trees explaining why each one lacked 'a lot of chop'.

However, I could show someone your PJ fig thread that you posted and comment that it is indeed beautiful. I personally like it a lot and I also liked your Tee Tree that you posted fyi. So obviously you might be very talented, but having seen your Chinese Elm I might not have thought so. So essentially, I hope you understand why people find it bizarre that you would feel that way having only seen a tiny fraction of the artists work in question.

I hope you honestly think about this in relation to yourself and why you might not feel this way had you seen the main body of the koreshoffs work.

No hard feelings at all Treeman, I completely respect your view and others on this thread that do not hold much credit to the koreshoffs for quality bonsai or writings of theirs. I wish I could have taken you back in time to their nursery and let you see the trees themselves, but it just can't be. It is wonderful that we all hold such different views, and again, this is what enhances the minds of all, so that hopefully this thread will broaden the minds of all those whom read it, and to see that Bonsai will forever be a subjective art.

[Pup]

This is my last comment on this post it is a damn fine publication worth the money and the read.m