AusBonsai

Posted: **February 22nd, 2020, 8:44 pm**

Ryceman3 wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2020, 8:20 pm I feel like I’ve heard this argument/statement about “naturally” styled trees and the “are we going to follow the Japanese” with their generic and un-natural approach that seems to currently be in favour. It is brought up regularly, almost monotonously, but I have to be honest... I don’t get it.

I don't get it either.
I have my theories... but that would just start another sh!tstorm, so I'll be the diplomat and bite my tongue.

Ryceman3 wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2020, 8:20 pm ... but unless you see them in real life, you really haven’t seen them. I loved the whole experience at Kokufu. I have never seen trees presented at the same level here in Australia.

100% agree.
It is easy to be an armchair critic.
I didn't understand until I saw them in real life.

I recommend everyone put this one on their bucket list, and then make an educated judgement.

Posted: **February 23rd, 2020, 1:58 pm**

Thanks for posting the photos.

A number of the deciduous trees have very fine old complex trunks, with branches that get gradually more boring, parallel and consistent as they go out, leading to a remarkably childish "Standard tree" outline - the dreaded "green helmet". I don't understand how such subtle, remarkable and refined artists can end up with such a dull shape. The remarkable application of technique, for its own sake, has in these cases resulted in an outline a child could draw.

There are also some beautiful trees with complex trunks, branches that have been shaped in harmony with the trunks, and foliage masses which are complex, balanced, graceful, interesting and even sublime. Where the foliage masses complement the trunk, and the structure is complex, rather than formulaic. These for me are great trees.

If stereotypical, simple outlines that do not relate to the trunks or the early parts of the branches is the fashion then possibly the king needs to look at his new clothes...

All just my opinion, but if I see another damn toilet-brush-tree....

("Neat is the enemy of art." Discuss.)

Gavin

Posted: **February 23rd, 2020, 2:56 pm**

Double post

Posted: **February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm**

wrcmad wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2020, 8:44 pm
I recommend everyone put this one on their bucket list, and then make an educated judgement.

So my and Gavin's comments are uneducated because we try to articulate what we don't like?
Why so defensive? It's just a discussion. I could drag out quotes from Japanese authors saying the same kind of things. Are they uneducated too?
Do you know about the arguments relating to the tea ceremony? How it was refined, glossed and commercialized to a point where it actually became the opposite of what it was first trying to achieve and how many purists were enraged by it? The same thing has happened to bonsai and it is just a matter of time before the wheel turns. The wheel is turning faster in the West than the East. The revolution in approach will start in the West and then the Japanese will (re) discover it and perfect it through their superior technique. That's why you hear this brought up more and more. Do you ''get it'' now? I think you should be a bit more careful when branding people uneducated.
Discussion about any work can only be a GOOD thing. However disagreeable it might seem. Only good.

Posted: **February 23rd, 2020, 9:38 pm**

Whoa big fella!
You need to calm down a little!

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm So my and Gavin's comments are uneducated because we try to articulate what we don't like?

When did this become all about you and Gavin?
And when did I label your comments uneducated?
I was responding to the OP's (Ryceman) statement that " ....unless you see them in real life, you really haven’t seen them....".
I didn't expect you to jump in and get defensive like I had just accused you of something... I wasn't even addressing you?

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm Why so defensive?

On the contrary.

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm It's just a discussion.

Agree. I think you should listen to your own advice more often.[/quote]

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm I could drag out quotes from Japanese authors saying the same kind of things. Are they uneducated too?
Do you know about the arguments relating to the tea ceremony? How it was refined, glossed and commercialized to a point where it actually became the opposite of what it was first trying to achieve and how many purists were enraged by it? The same thing has happened to bonsai and it is just a matter of time before the wheel turns. The wheel is turning faster in the West than the East. The revolution in approach will start in the West and then the Japanese will (re) discover it and perfect it through their superior technique. That's why you hear this brought up more and more. Do you ''get it'' now? I think you should be a bit more careful when branding people uneducated.

Tea ceremonies? Enraged? Revolutionary predictions?

Nope, don't get it, but nice rant. Total nonsense.

Mate, I just assumed you had seen Japanese bonsai. Nobody I know would so stubbornly rag on something to the point of calling it repulsive, having never even seen or experiencing it first hand? The mind boggles.
What I do get now is the self-inference that you actually have not experienced first-hand the quality of the top-level of Japanese bonsai - the crux of Ryceman's posts.
I don't really care either way - I'm sure you could have if you'd wanted to, and I'm not judging you for it either.
But I thus stand by my previous statements... and Ryceman's BTW.

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm Discussion about any work can only be a GOOD thing. However disagreeable it might seem. Only good.

Well at least we agree on something.

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 9:25 am**

wrcmad wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 9:38 pm Whoa big fella!
You need to calm down a little!

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm So my and Gavin's comments are uneducated because we try to articulate what we don't like?
When did this become all about you and Gavin?
And when did I label your comments uneducated?
I was responding to the OP's (Ryceman) statement that " ....unless you see them in real life, you really haven’t seen them....".
I didn't expect you to jump in and get defensive like I had just accused you of something... I wasn't even addressing you?
treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm Why so defensive?
On the contrary.
treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm It's just a discussion.
Agree. I think you should listen to your own advice more often.

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm I could drag out quotes from Japanese authors saying the same kind of things. Are they uneducated too?
Do you know about the arguments relating to the tea ceremony? How it was refined, glossed and commercialized to a point where it actually became the opposite of what it was first trying to achieve and how many purists were enraged by it? The same thing has happened to bonsai and it is just a matter of time before the wheel turns. The wheel is turning faster in the West than the East. The revolution in approach will start in the West and then the Japanese will (re) discover it and perfect it through their superior technique. That's why you hear this brought up more and more. Do you ''get it'' now? I think you should be a bit more careful when branding people uneducated.

Tea ceremonies? Enraged? Revolutionary predictions?

Nope, don't get it, but nice rant. Total nonsense.

Mate, I just assumed you had seen Japanese bonsai. Nobody I know would so stubbornly rag on something to the point of calling it repulsive, having never even seen or experiencing it first hand? The mind boggles.
What I do get now is the self-inference that you actually have not experienced first-hand the quality of the top-level of Japanese bonsai - the crux of Ryceman's posts.
I don't really care either way - I'm sure you could have if you'd wanted to, and I'm not judging you for it either.
But I thus stand by my previous statements... and Ryceman's BTW.

treeman wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:59 pm Discussion about any work can only be a GOOD thing. However disagreeable it might seem. Only good.

Well at least we agree on something.

[/quote]

''The mind boggles.''
You mind is too easily boggled. You might want to re-read the evolution of this thread and try harder to understand it so you can un-boggle up a bit?
I'll spare you the embarrassment of going back over again it point by point.

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 9:48 am**

treeman wrote: ↑February 24th, 2020, 9:25 am You might want to re-read the evolution of this thread and try harder to understand it so you can un-boggle up a bit?

No need.
I was there.

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 10:05 am**

treeman wrote: ↑February 24th, 2020, 9:25 am You might want to re-read the evolution of this thread and try harder to understand it ...

The thread is about trees from Kokufu 2020. I should know I started it. Going to Japan to view it was one of my bonsai highlights ... and like I said already I made the thread to show others what I saw and hopefully garner some inspiration for their own trees. The trees in Japan were amazing, I get not all of them are for everyone - but I feel pretty priviliged to have seen them "in the bark". If you ask me there was something for everybody at that exhibition... kind of like an art gallery where you can go and check out Rembrandt, Pissarro, Picasso, Giocametti, Warhol, Rothko ... whoever it may be - take what you like from it. Fortunately for me I see value in it all and can appreciate the work of artists with many different styles and influences, and that is the mindset I apply to bonsai. Closing off to things that challenge your idea of what a tree "should be" and labelling them repulsive or whatever is not an evolution of the thread. It's a degradation.

So, back to my original inspiration for this thread ... here's a link to a bonsai tonight article which discusses the winning trees from this year's Kokufu. There is a lot of positive feedback on these trees, written by a Westerner coincidently, who, like me seemed to really enjoy the first hand experience of Kokufu this year.
https://bonsaitonight.com/2020/02/21/pr ... xhibition/

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 10:08 am**

wrcmad wrote: ↑February 24th, 2020, 9:48 am
treeman wrote: ↑February 24th, 2020, 9:25 am You might want to re-read the evolution of this thread and try harder to understand it so you can un-boggle up a bit?
No need.
I was there.

Well you were definitely somewhere.

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 11:28 am**

Mike is only saying that its disappointing to see such masterful efforts not continued to be applied in the fashion of the natural trunk, especially considering the high talent of these artists. It would be fascinating to see the resulting structure if the trunk was continued in the form that it is.

And Gav has pointed out the ludicrousness that this look can often convey if it isn't.

I'm sure that in time, a lot more of our bonsai will look like trees. Maybe not, but we can all express what makes us fall in love or what repulses us.
I admit my heart dies when I see green helmets, but like Mike, I have hope for the younger generation and their arrogance to hopefully forge their own natural path.

To say the philosophy of mentioning that a lot of natural trunks are given green helmets is overstated, is actually not brought up as much as the philosophy of showcasing these types of bonsai though.

If a member mentions that green helmets aren't to their liking, that is indeed their opinion. But for example if someone says cascade trees repulse them, that is also an opinion. Ironically, most cascade bonsai actually make me cringe, regardless of the efforts to produce them.

But I'm not saying that the artist is repulsive, its just saying that visually it makes me cringe, regardless of the wonderful talent that was exhibited on many of them.

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 11:54 am**

Ryceman3 post_id=274877 time=1582502734 user_id=7464]
Closing off to things that challenge your idea of what a tree "should be" and labelling them repulsive or whatever is not an evolution of the thread. It's a degradation.

I use the word evolution in this context...'' 3 : the process of working out or developing''. not this way....... c(1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state :
So no, there was no degradation of the thread. Only of some of the trees displayed in the exhibition.

If you ask me there was something for everybody at that exhibition...

And that's why I said this.... ''Some very nice trees. The very first one is my firm favourite but I also love the shimpaku in your last set of pics. The cycad is fascinating.
Unfortunately I find all the pines shown in Japan these days very boring.

Thanks for posting.''

What's hard to understand? Or is it hard to accept that not all the remarks glowed with the brilliancy of universal approval?

Jeezuz it's like pulling teeth...

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 11:59 am**

Rory wrote: ↑February 24th, 2020, 11:28 am Mike is only saying that its disappointing to see such masterful efforts not continued to be applied in the fashion of the natural trunk, especially considering the high talent of these artists. It would be fascinating to see the resulting structure if the trunk was continued in the form that it is.

And Gav has pointed out the ludicrousness that this look can often convey if it isn't.

I'm sure that in time, a lot more of our bonsai will look like trees. Maybe not, but we can all express what makes us fall in love or what repulses us.
I admit my heart dies when I see green helmets, but like Mike, I have hope for the younger generation and their arrogance to hopefully forge their own natural path.

To say the philosophy of mentioning that a lot of natural trunks are given green helmets is overstated, is actually not brought up as much as the philosophy of showcasing these types of bonsai though.

If a member mentions that green helmets aren't to their liking, that is indeed their opinion. But for example if someone says cascade trees repulse them, that is also an opinion. Ironically, most cascade bonsai actually make me cringe, regardless of the efforts to produce them.
But I'm not saying that the artist is repulsive, its just saying that visually it makes me cringe, regardless of the wonderful talent that was exhibited on many of them.

Thank's Rory for understanding where others can't! Actually the word I was looking for was repellent not repulsive, (sometimes the right word is just not available to an aging brain ..

) But I'll own ''repulsive''. Not that much difference in the end..

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 12:36 pm**

Lets get this thread back on track hey.
R3 thanks for the bonsai tonight article, I really like all the trees in it. The shimpaku with the twisting deadwood coming out the top reminds me of a samurai kobuto (yes helmet) and even though a lot of trees with a lot of deadwood aren't my cup of tea I love this one.

Cheers

Greg

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 12:57 pm**

Cheers Greg,
I just noted that MJL posted a link to this same thread a few pages back, so thanks mate ... there's been a lot of "stuff" in between so I missed that ... but, here is another thread from bonsai tonight which looks at a tree that was exhibited this year (the 94th Kokufu), and was also in the first Kokufu which is pretty incredible. There is a lot of history here!

https://bonsaitonight.com/2020/02/18/a- ... xhibition/

Posted: **February 24th, 2020, 6:07 pm**

Ryceman3 wrote: ↑February 24th, 2020, 12:57 pm here is another thread from bonsai tonight which looks at a tree that was exhibited this year (the 94th Kokufu), and was also in the first Kokufu which is pretty incredible. There is a lot of history here!

I have not seen this tree in the "bark", so my [un-educated] comment is that it looks approx. 86 years younger, then when it was originally first exhibited.
Has the acquired amount of foliage messed up it's original scale

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