Bonsai at the Extreme of their Natural Range

[Jamie]

from my understanding it is the structure of the zeolite that will hold nutrients and moisture for longer periods of time, locking in the zeolite, i am not quite sure how it actually works but from the research i did when i bought a bag and the testing clearly showed to much moiture retention by itself.

540px-Zeolite-ZSM-5-3D-vdW.png

as you can see by the structure of zeolite in under microscopic magnification it is of a honey comb structure. as a result of this it is fine for agricultural and open ground growing but as a potting medium it retains to much moisture and takes a lot longer for the plant to absorb it in this it also comes to cation rates and ion charging, zeolite has a natural occuring negative charge which draws positivly charged ions like nitrogen to it, unless the tree can use it the zeolite will lock that nutrient to the media and hold it for a lot longer and there for the moisture doesnt pass aswell through the potting media and will stay wet for longer.

with my tests even in full sun the top 5mm dried within a couple of days but below this and deeper the wetter it got. i use a small amout in my medium which is generally 80-90% diatomite as diatomite has a better ability to release the moisture and nutrients. upwards of anywhere 8-10% organic and only a small % of zeolite.

jamie

[Bretts]

Sorry Jamie but are you claiming that a tree in Zeolite uses less water than a tree in Diatomite?

[anttal63]

Ant - he is around Bega' ish kinda area. I wouldnt want to be too specific on the forum here without asking him personally.

Cheers,
Leigh.

OK leigh; so tell me this is coastal and not high country? Is it a place that would normally be regarded as hot and humid or otherwise??? During all this rain that has come down where were the temps at ???

[Jamie]

Sorry Jamie but are you claiming that a tree in Zeolite uses less water than a tree in Diatomite?

no i am not claiming that a tree in zeolite will use less water than in diatomite, i didnt ecplain myself right, i am saying the zeolite holds moisture longer than diatomite, if zeolite is used at 100% you wouldnt need to water any where near as often as diatomite as the diatomite releases the moisture eaiser than zeolite. what i am saying is zeolite holds moisture for longer.

i am just going over the discussion i had on zeolite a while back.

[NBPCA]

Good question Ant. I have seen Mick here on the boards before - I wonder if we could get him to elaborate.
I think his name here is MickB. See if you can track him down with a PM.

Cheers,
Leigh.

[Bretts]

Hi Jamie
Lets put it this way. Lets say identical bonsai pots of each medium. Fill them with water and after gravity has done it's thing we will be left with 500mm in the zeolite and 1000ml in the Diatomite as it is able to hold onto twice as much water.
Now the only way that water goes anywhere is by a plant sucking it out or by evaporation. Once the equilibrium is attained there is no more drainage. They hold what they hold.
I guess there is a possibility that diatomite can release water to evaporation slightly faster than zeolite. But I can't see this being any impact to the equation so that only leaves the tree to suck the water out of the medium.

If the zeolite has retained less water to start with after it had drained then how can it stay wet longer unless it makes the tree use less water?

[anttal63]

Good question Ant. I have seen Mick here on the boards before - I wonder if we could get him to elaborate.
I think his name here is MickB. See if you can track him down with a PM.

Cheers,
Leigh.

I found him leigh but he hasn't looked in here for some time now. Any how what im trying to get at is; i have never seen my scotts shy away from water. scotts in europe get abused with water all the time. No prob to them. To kill in 12 days with some one of that experience. Im not convinced it has anything to do with medium. A lot of water with high temp will create high humidity and thickening of the air. Fungal or enviromental or both ??? I would love to hear more from Mick on this. One of you guys that know him, ring him and tell him to get on!

[Jamie]

brett,

i am going on personal experience with it, i tested it and it lasted bout a week before i changed it out as it was holidng moisture to long, even yourself tried a pure zeolite mix with a JBP and seen bad results. i know what i seen from my personal experience, you might have a different one, i didnt say that the tree wasnt taking in as much water, i said zeolite was retaining moisture longer than the diatomite, try it! maybe you will get the same results as me, maybe not. maybe what i had was a different form of zeolite as what i purchased was "activated zeolite" not having the bag anymore i cant prove but it stated it help more than 50% of its weight, even so the sites say it only holds that amount.

[Bretts]

Hi Jamie
I would hazard a guess that it was a small uniform size in your 100% mix that caused it to hold onto more water than the diatomite. There are many types of Zeolite but I remember you where using the orange stuff which in my understanding is the oldest and has one of the least water holding capacity of the zeolites. I don't think it is the water holding capacity that my tree did not like in 100% zeolite. As I have found recently some 100% mixes seem more susceptible to pH changes from such things as dynamic lifter.


Diatomite holds more water hence unless there is another variable I can't see it drying out quicker?

[Grant Bowie]

Wow this kicked off.

Mick lives on the south Coast of NSW and recently some places down there received 500ml of rain in a short period plus more over an extended period; not exactly the gentle mists of Scotland.

It would not get the cold of Scotland(or Canberra) either so I imagine, as with all things Bonsai, it is an amalgam of events.

Too much rain, potting mix that has coped for 40 years but not this year, humidity and then dis-ease of some sort. Oh and living at or beyond the extreme of their natural range.

Some trees can cope almost anywhere; some can't.

You may also remeber I had a sick Scots pine this year as well. although it has recovered.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

Hi Jamie
I understand that zeolite holds about half as much water as diatomite.

I could be wrong but I think Grant is saying 50% of the mix is made up of the three listed ingredients and the other 50% I guess must be organic?

Grant
Would a totally inert potting mix have helped do you think? His potting mix was about 50% blue metal, diatomite and zeolite.

Hi Grant I find it hard to believe that just rain would kill a healthy tree. Considering watering for holidays and such I go by the advice that a tree can die in one day(hours) from no water but it takes about 2 weeks to weaken a tree from over watering.
Maybe there is more to the story in that the humidity of the season weakend them and the rain finished them off? Otherwise I would say get them out of the rain

I do think a more inert potting mix would help in heavy rain periods.

50% of the grit combined and 50% organic. A few years ago this would have been considered very gritty and open.

I have also been using a mix very similar to this but may change.

Grant

[Asus101]

You may also remeber I had a sick Scots pine this year as well. although it has recovered.

Grant

There was talk of a scots pine out at the golf course in mildura, although some claim its a Japanese black. Jason Knightly used to collect seed for Don D I belive, I just havnt had a chance to get out there and check it out.

[Jamie]

hey guys

after looking at the hawthorne at the collection in the pic i love the colour and leaf shape on these. in anyones opinion, what are there thoughts on how they would go in a climate like mine?

[Grant Bowie]

hey guys

after looking at the hawthorne at the collection in the pic i love the colour and leaf shape on these. in anyones opinion, what are there thoughts on how they would go in a climate like mine?

My understanding is that fruiting and flowering cool climate deciduous trees often wont flower or fruit in more tropical areas. I believe this to be true with Pyracantha for instance.

Hawthorn can suufer from insect damage and mildews etc so maybe your climate isnt the best. Ask Lindsay,Glenys or Tony B about Hawthorn or someone in your area. Otherwise get a small one and try it.

PS> they hate to dry out.

Grant

[Jamie]

thanks for the info grant

i have seen pyra up here that have been in flower and fruit, so it might be ok, i can keep them wet no drama, i will definatly be getting some and seeing how they go, i think i should be able to work it out nicely hopefully