let's talk about bonsai nurseries

[Daluke]

As a newcomer, I have only been to a handful of nurseries but have noticed a few things consistent with each one.

I have never been to your nursery (I hope to visit tomorrow) and yours may or may not do the below.

- Tubestock and starters are positioned away from potensai. Potensai is then positioned away from established trees ;

Why aren't the lower priced starter version trees beside the established expensive Bonsai'd tree? Grouping according to species could promote sales of all as;

1) People on budgets will go for the lower priced item in most instances if they think they are saving money. This is natural when a high priced item is next to a lower priced item

2) It justifies the cost of the expensive tree because you see first hand the effort that has gone into getting it established from starter phase to potensai to Bonsai

3) It motivates me to buy tubestock and starters because in my head I could one day make it into the Bonsai it is next to

Staff are either keen to help and approach straight away or ignore you totally and come across as arrogant and rude ;

Being approached on entry and asking can I help makes me feel under pressure to either buy something or get out.

Being ignored makes me feel like I'm not valued.

A simple 'hello and enjoy the nursery' makes me want to take my time. Others might feel different.

No classes are run or if they are they are they aren't regular;

This speaks for itself. When classes are run, can I bring my trees in from home and ask questions and get advice on what I already have?

When purchasing things, no one has asked if I'm a member of a club/what my experience level is;

Having the opportunity to join a club then and there might increase memberships.

I never see the nursery men/women doing demonstrations;

I would like to see and hear the masters at work.

Established trees don't have clear price tags on them;

I'm not going to consider buying something if I don't know the price.

Things are cramped;

I'm not into Feng Shui but I feel like there is bad energy flows in most Bonsai nurseries. There is no flow or structure. I know that space is limited, but I feel like I'm going to knock something over when I walk through the aisles.

Location of the stores don't encourage walk ins from passerbys;


Again speaks for itself.

[bonsaisensation]

[quote="Daluke"]As a newcomer, I have only been to a handful of nurseries but have noticed a few things consistent with each one.

- Tubestock and starters are positioned away from potensai. Potensai is then positioned away from established trees ;

Why aren't the lower priced starter version trees beside the established expensive Bonsai'd tree? Grouping according to species could promote sales of all as;

1) People on budgets will go for the lower priced item in most instances if they think they are saving money. This is natural when a high priced item is next to a lower priced item

2) It justifies the cost of the expensive tree because you see first hand the effort that has gone into getting it established from starter phase to potensai to Bonsai

3) It motivates me to buy tubestock and starters because in my head I could one day make it into the Bonsai it is next to


Established trees don't have clear price tags on them;

I'm not going to consider buying something if I don't know the price.

Things are cramped;

I'm not into Feng Shui but I feel like there is bad energy flows in most Bonsai nurseries. There is no flow or structure. I know that space is limited, but I feel like I'm going to knock something over when I walk through the aisles.

quote]

hi Daluke
thanks for the time to put you comments together. i like to think of it as a timely reality check, every bonsai nurseries should do it regularly and i am guilty of the above offences .

[Elmar]

As a newcomer,

Not just newcomers feel this way. It surprises me no end that businesses these days are either "car sales" or "Library" styled; one is purely focussed on getting you to commit while the other ignores you until you make a noise ... If you aren't doing it for fun, but as a business this should be part of your business strategy; I agree.

- Tubestock and starters are positioned away from potensai. Potensai is then positioned away from established trees ;

Why aren't the lower priced starter version trees beside the established expensive Bonsai'd tree? Grouping according to species could promote sales of all as;

1) People on budgets will go for the lower priced item in most instances if they think they are saving money. This is natural when a high priced item is next to a lower priced item

2) It justifies the cost of the expensive tree because you see first hand the effort that has gone into getting it established from starter phase to potensai to Bonsai

3) It motivates me to buy tubestock and starters because in my head I could one day make it into the Bonsai it is next to

Staff are either keen to help and approach straight away or ignore you totally and come across as arrogant and rude ;

Being approached on entry and asking can I help makes me feel under pressure to either buy something or get out.

Being ignored makes me feel like I'm not valued.

A simple 'hello and enjoy the nursery' makes me want to take my time. Others might feel different.

I really like this idea...

No classes are run or if they are they are they aren't regular; In WA, Peter does, I understand, do regular Lessons

This speaks for itself. When classes are run, can I bring my trees in from home and ask questions and get advice on what I already have?

When purchasing things, no one has asked if I'm a member of a club/what my experience level is; Logical argument! I believe this would have a two fold benefit - membership and business growth - a more holistic business/client/club relationship ...

Having the opportunity to join a club then and there might increase memberships.

I never see the nursery men/women doing demonstrations;

I would like to see and hear the masters at work. Even if staff did basic maintenance, pruning, wiring, weeding, watering in plain site - newbies can learn and discuss these. The Nursery gets these jobs done AND customers (read Newbies) can learn as they go shopping... There is a reason the big green shed has a caffee in their buildings - keeps customers IN their store longer .... food for thought.

Established trees don't have clear price tags on them;

I'm not going to consider buying something if I don't know the price. Hmmm personal choice, I think. If I wanted it and had the faith in myself to maintain and improve it, the label wouldn't stop me.

Things are cramped; ... while I understand this point, doesn't this mean they have a good selection/range/quantity of stock to choose from? I would agree with this if there was a ton of the same stuff, tho!

I'm not into Feng Shui but I feel like there is bad energy flows in most Bonsai nurseries. There is no flow or structure. I know that space is limited, but I feel like I'm going to knock something over when I walk through the aisles. Again, lots of potential merchandise ... But flow would certainly benefit any store!

Location of the stores don't encourage walk ins from passerbys; This can't always be helped with established nurseries but should be a focus of part of a new business plan! As I understand it, most current nurseries are long established businesses so they may very well be limited in what they can do.


Again speaks for itself.

These are valid points, for me also and perhaps old established businesses are 'too busy' working IN their business to be able to work ON their business ... I am currently working too much IN my business which is preventing me from working ON my business... while we are continuously picking up new customers, we are loosing some old long term customers! So I have recognised that I am loosing customers because I am too busy working to sort out their issues! Now I have to work twice as hard to regain their trust (if not too late) in order to maintain them... But the beauty is that it is never too late! Old customers can and will come back to you ...

[bonsaisensation]

Hi Tien, I haven't bought anything at a Bonsai nursery, other than consumables for a long, long time. I'm holding out for a Bonsai nursery that is not fixated on gaining the attention of customers with $30 burning a hole in their pocket on Friday arvo (OMG!!! you have Corokias!!!, this is my lucky day!). Turns out that I'd have more luck hunting unicorns, such is the allure of the easy, dumb dollar.

Cheers,
Mojo

ok, i have thought about how to respond to this comment from mojo for a long time. and something else happened today prompted me to do more thinking on this matter. i might get shot for opening this can of worms, however, it is something that i think will never go away. so we might as well deal with it.

the dreaded "mallsai", when i first saw this word, i couldn't figure out what it is. but in a few word, this is what i can come up with" it's bonsai made with minimum effort and sold for maximum profit in a shoppin MALL". here are a few bonsai nurseries who have supplied or are still supplying mallsai in NSW and VIC that i know of......
NSW- bonsai south, ray nesci, bonsai environment.
VIC- orient bonsai, bonsai farm, bonsai art, paradisia, imagination tree and me .

some of the nurseries mentioned above are very well-respected in the bonsai community, yet they had been or are still producing what "bonsai people" regarded as rubbish and rip offs.

i wonder what roles does mallsai play in the bonsai fraternity and what roles does it play in the running of a bonsai nursery?

ok, shoot me now

regards

[bonsaisensation]

Hi Tien, I haven't bought anything at a Bonsai nursery, other than consumables for a long, long time. I'm holding out for a Bonsai nursery that is not fixated on gaining the attention of customers with $30 burning a hole in their pocket on Friday arvo (OMG!!! you have Corokias!!!, this is my lucky day!). Turns out that I'd have more luck hunting unicorns, such is the allure of the easy, dumb dollar.

Cheers,
Mojo

ok, i have thought about how to respond to this comment from mojo for a long time. and something else happened today prompted me to do more thinking on this matter. i might get shot for opening this can of worms, however, it is something that i think will never go away. so we might as well deal with it.

the dreaded "mallsai", when i first saw this word, i couldn't figure out what it is. but in a few word, this is what i can come up with" it's bonsai made with minimum effort and sold for maximum profit in a shoppin MALL". here are a few bonsai nurseries who have supplied or are still supplying mallsai in NSW and VIC that i know of......
NSW- bonsai south, ray nesci, bonsai environment.
VIC- orient bonsai, bonsai farm, bonsai art, paradisia, imagination tree and me .

some of the nurseries mentioned above are very well-respected in the bonsai community, yet they had been or are still producing what "bonsai people" regarded as rubbish and rip offs.

i wonder what roles does mallsai play in the bonsai fraternity and what roles does it play in the running of a bonsai nursery?

ok, shoot me now

regards

[Elmar]

Funny enough, I think Mallsais fill a gap for those that like the idea of a Bonsai but that are not interested in learning about it or being bothered to look after it! In that vein, these nurseries are taking advantage of a nice market. What it's effect on the real interested Bonsai enthusiasts is is an initial embarrassment (I know coz I bought one!) but we soon figure out where/what we want to do and the stayers will keep at it!
So I believe this focus on Mallsais is missing the point of the discussion here...


Cheers
EZ
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[treeman]

IMO, These second or third rate rubbish do nothing but detract from the appreciation of the the true bonsai art and inhibit its development. They should not be called bonsai and and they should be put down to the level they deserve at every possible opportunity.

[JaseH]

Tien, I am in two minds as to the value of 'mallsai'.

On one hand, my interest in bonsai was sparked by a mallsai which was given to me as a gift, it lead me to investigate further and develop my interest for 'real' bonsai. On the other hand - it unfortunately appears to be the form of bonsai that the general public are most exposed to via popular commercial outlets - and therefore actually does harm as far as educating what bonsai actually is. Mention bonsai to the average Joe in the street and more often than not they will think you are talking about the 'mallsai' they see on the shelves in the Bunnings nursery.

So I dont know - is it a case of 'any publicity is good publicity' or does it create a false cheapened image of the real art?

[squizzy]

I think a fair percentage of us started our bonsai path with a malsai and maybe still are in possession of a few?

Or is it just me?

I think malsai are needed for the good of bonsai. We need something to learn on? Some will be content forever with their malsai and others will learn more about bonsai and go on to buy more decent trees maybe 1 or 2 or 10 or 100 or 200?

I feel for the nurseries. I have worked in a few and I now run my own landscape business. Make money however you can as ethically as you can I say. I visit ray a bit and always get great advise.I often walk out without buying anything. Some here will say he grows rubbish but when a man can keep a business afloat for 20+ years just doing what he loves doing, he is doing alright I think. He sells a 2 year old seedling for $3. and when you walk away with a handful of those as a beginner your happy so a year later you come back and buy a few for $50 then you get serious and 6 months later your back for one that is $300 and then.......... you get the point. Thats just one person. How many people visit a nursery in a year?

I have noticed a lot of rage on these threads relating to nurseries and the future of bonsai. I don't get it. I thought bonsai was supposed to teach you patience and have a calming effect. Some people sound like they have stepped straight out of a pantera concert.

REEELAAAAAX.

squizz

Squizz

[bodhidharma]

Make money however you can as ethically as you can I say. I visit ray a bit and always get great advise.I often walk out without buying anything. Some here will say he grows rubbish but when a man can keep a business afloat for 20+ years just doing what he loves doing, he is doing alright I think.

Onya Suizz well said and agree with your sentiments totally. Ray is a great guy and a realist, i also have respect for the man as one Nurseryman to another.

[JaseH]

I have noticed a lot of rage on these threads relating to nurseries and the future of bonsai. I don't get it. I thought bonsai was supposed to teach you patience and have a calming effect. Some people sound like they have stepped straight out of a pantera concert.

REEELAAAAAX.

squizz

Fully agree Squizz! I dont get the agro or the point either.

I'm not sure I agree that mallsai is a good thing to learn on though? Sure it may spark an interest to delve deeper into the art, but how much can you learn on a small tree that has already been potted and styled, probably way earlier that it should? Ok besides maybe basic care and watering, or tweak a branch here or there. The first thing I did after receiving my 'gifted mallsai' was to stash it in the corner and go buy a juniper starter stock from a bonsai nursery, which I proceeded to butcher and mangle into the shape of a bonsai - this was learning.

A lot newbies buy mallsai - post it up as their first post on the forum asking for advice on how to proceed with it and the majority of answers they get is to stick in the ground and grow it for a few years. Hardly what they want to hear or do when they are busting with enthusiasm for a new hobby - they need to start getting their hands dirty.

[squizzy]

Fair point jase. I think what I am trying to say is that without buying the malsai they may never have ended up in bonsai at all.

Keep doing what you do bodhi. Your a great bloke from what i see on here and if ever I can get down to your neck if the woods I would love to pop in and have a yarn.

Squizz

[Andrew F]

Some here will say he grows rubbish but when a man can keep a business afloat for 20+ years just doing what he loves doing, he is doing alright I think.
Squizz

Ive found most people who say that sorta sh*t are the ones with agenda's...

[treeman]

A few years back there were some Black pines around which came from up north (NSW). They were advanced ground grown material. Upon unearthing the roots, it was found that they were completely coiled around themselves with mature bark and totally useless. Eventually they need to be thrown away. (or sold to another poor enthusiast) This sort of practice is inexcusable. Especially now that we should know better. Yet the practice of potting or planting without arranging roots continues. It is just one example of the sub-standard material out there. I fully understand the REASON for producing quick and easy trees....to make a profit and pay the bills. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. For goodness' sake why the need to walk on eggshells over this subject. If you want to be in the bonsai nursery buisness then produce the best material possible.( by the ''best material possible'' I mean material which has a good future and only needs experience and time to develop into whatever is visualised) If you cannot do that and survive then grow potted daisies. You will make more money from that anyway. But you may say ''I want to grow bonsai and sell them because I love them''. Well fine but if you produce rubbish then you should be prepeared to be told that from time to time but I ceratainly have no respect for those who sell this kind of stuff in the pursute of profit. It has NOTHING to do with anger (as someone mentioned) It is calling a spade a spade and not pretending its a masterpeice. Why?, because this only leads the novice to believe that and the cycle continues.
I can only repeat, growing and selling inferior material without a future (thick straight trunks, crippled roots, unsuitible species, collected stuff with a pruning scar you could land a helicopter on, thin trees wired by someone who seems to have been blindfoled), will only serve to bring ultimate disappointment, dissastisfaction and disallusionment to the buyer as he eventually learns what he has wasted years on and often spent a lot of money on. Those who are satisfied with these specimens are not really our concern as they have no real intention of developing the craft and are not relevent to this disscussion. Let's learn what good quality is and reject inferiority. We do this by joining good clubs, going to shows and studying the Japanese albums.

[squizzy]

Hi treeman. Good points but shouldn't bonsai nursery be able to sell both standards of tree. Much like a car yard that has a few options and not just a lot full of ferraris.
My thought on those black pines. If you had spent good money on ground grown stock and didn't inspect the roots isn't that a tiny bit foolish.

I think there is merit in good quality stock but unfortunately they come with a price because I would imagine the labour involved is much more. Not everyone can afford ferraris and not everyone wants Ferraris. Maybe the nursery should infom them as they are paying something like " you do know you e picked the daewoo and not the Ferrari don't you"

Just a thought

Squizz