New thoughts/ideas on shimpaku - help appreciated

[ADO]

P1000241.JPG

Juni 2.jpg

Juni 3 lower branches.JPG

O.K, so I have been doing lots of research on my shimpaku juniper, junipers in general and looking at tonnes of shimpaku bonsai styles.

The photos I have attached hopefully show my Juniper relatively clearly. The first shot is an overall front on shot showing the pretty thick foliage. the tree's overall height, including trunk is 37 cm.

The other photos show the overall branch structure of the tree. there are a couple of problems I now see with the natural structure of this tree

Firstly, there are two horizontally opposed (bar ) branches low on the trunk of the tree. I am thinking of removing both to make the trunk distinct and neat as Ithink they take away from the movement in the trunk.

Secondly, there are a number of branches further up the tree that jut out towards the viewers eye. Again, I believe it is appropriate to remove these as they look unsightly.

Thirdly, also further up the tree some of the branches are pretty evenly spaced (almost like a step ladder) and my guess is I will have to shorten and wire extensively in the upper part of the tree.

The trunk has ok movement in the lower part but the trunk pretty much goes straight up on an angle with very little taper.

So the questions I have are:

1. how do I go about removing the foliage to get a good look at the trunk and branch structure to begin styling this tree? How much do I remove?

2. Should I lop off the two bottom most branches and those branches poking out towards the eye of the viewer?

3. Do you think that this tree has potential as an informal upright? I was thinking of putting in a gradual bend in the upper part of the tree using thick bonsai wire.

4. or should I reduce the trunk and chop the tree down to make it shorter?

These are just some thoughts and ideas I have. I dont want to rush into it but I also don't want to suffer from 'analysis paralysis'.

I understand that judging from photos isn't easy and I do intend to get to a bonsai workshop sometime, but in the meantime any thoughts, ideas and help would be much appreciated at this very early stage.

cheers

Adrian

[Andrew E]

Hi Adrian,
How big of a tree you eventually after? If you want to grow it on then leave the 2 bottom branches to aid in thickening up the trunk. You need to check the roots to see the best side then decide whats the front of the tree.
You'll need to remove one of the bar branches, likely the one on the inside of the curve.
Definitely wire and bend the upper straight part of the tree, but don't remove too much of the foilage initially as you want as much food making material, i.e. needles as possible remaining on the tree while it is growing and maturing. A big mistake I see people doing with junipers is the removal of heaps of branches, then the tree struggles to come back afterwards.
Cut branches off gradually as the tree matures and it'll get there quicker than cutting to a 'finished' design now.
Yes branches pointing at you need to be pruned but from 2/3 up they're ok.
Take your time with it and it will be a nice tree

Andrew

[ADO]

lowerbranchescut.jpg

Hi Andrew,
thanks for the advice. In this photo I have drawn two red lines indicating what branches should be removed. Are these the 'bar branches' that you refer to?

In regards the size of the tree - that is a good question because I am unsure as to how tall it should be in regards to its ratio with trunk width etc. I have read that the 'proper' height for a bonsai should be six times the width of the trunk at the bottom. if that is correct than I could probably lop off about 10 cm off of the top - but that seem like a pretty bold move on my part.

I guess I will have to remove some foliage but if i do this by hand then I shouldn't remove too much I guess. Slowly does it

thanks again and any more ideas would be greatly appreciated

Adrian

[LLK]

I am very sorry, ADO and Andrew, but I can't agree with your plans for this Shimpaku. The first photos can't be enlarged, which is a pity. Anyway, it's strange that you shouldn't have taken the shape of the trunk and its position more into account. Basically, what I can see is that you have a small trunk section that comes out of the ground almost horizontally, then a long straight trunk that sits on it at right angles. (Shudder.... un-bonsai! ) ADO, you want to cut off the 2 bar branches at the bottom because they hide "the movement of the trunk". There is no useful movement, just a right angle. I.m.h.o. your first preoccupation should be with this problem. If the tree were mine, I'd find out what's below soil level (Andrew advised you too to look at the roots), and then see if, by tilting the tree the other way, so that the horizontal section at the base becomes vertical, you can possible make this Shimpaku into a leaning style bonsai. Maybe one of the upper branches could be used as a new apex, to give movement and make the tree more interesting. The photos don't allow an estimate of this suggestion. Leave one of the bar branches (as Andrew said), but shorten it, as a sacrifice branch.
Well, for now, that's it. Best wishes,

Lisa

[ADO]

Hi Lisa,

thanks very much for your input. I am very new to bonsai and this is my first tree so I am pretty much listening to the experts like Andrew and your kind self.

I know what you mean about the angle of the trunk and the branch. Its probably something I should have taken account before I bought it!

Anyway, is it possible that this tree could become a shonin by cutting down a bit? I have had a look at the roots as suggested and I think the angle of the trunk is pretty immovable from what I could see as the roots seem pretty large and angled on that side. but again, I am very new to this so I may not be right in this assumption. I'll have another look tonight.

In the meantime, i'll cut those two bar branches at the bottom. in regards to making a new apex, wouldn't i still be left with a right angle trunk regardless?

Anyway, if you would like me to put more photos up to make it clearer for you, then I would be more than happy to do so

cheers

Adrian

[Craig]

In the meantime, i'll cut those two bar branches at the bottom.

Don't cut them off yey mate , once they're gone you can't get them back, it looks to me that the whole tree will come from those 2 branches , i wouln't cut off either Adrian,. Take your time before deciding ,there's no rush mate

[Pup]

I have said it before bring to a meeting the last one for the year is on the 17th in the girl guide hall cnr Scarborough beach and Hancock st doubleview.
1pm

Cheers Pup

Or bring it here.

[ADO]

Thanks Craig and Pup.

I think I will go with your advice and just keep it watered and well fed until I can bring it to the bonsai workshop on the 17th. So its hands off at the moment until I can get some face to face advice.
As you said Craig, i'm in no rush and might just get a couple of other plants to keep as pets too.
thanks again for your excellent advice.
Will keep you posted

hope you are both well.


Adrian

[LLK]

I think I will go with your advice and just keep it watered and well fed until I can bring it to the bonsai workshop on the 17th. So its hands off at the moment until I can get some face to face advice.
ADO

Wisest thing you can do. ADO and Pup, I'd be very interested to see what you decide to do with this tree, at the workshop. Please post a photo or two afterwards.

Lisa

[GavinG]

I can't see much from the photos, but here are some useful tactics:

You can often get useful movement in a trunk by wiring. Don't accept that a juniper or pine trunk has to stay the way it is.

You can get stronger movement more quickly, and get a more dramatically tapering trunk, by cutting off the trunk at a low branch, and using that branch as the continuing trunk line. The first branch on the right looks possible. If you do that, you might like to grow the tree strongly for a year or two, to fatten the branch up a bit more, and then do another cut back to a sub-branch. That way you can get a trunk with lots of strong angles, if you take a few years to do it.

If someone takes your tree, and shows you what to do with it, you've lost an opportunity to learn. If you make them explain why they did what they did, you learn a process that will be useful for years. You are there to learn how to see, and do, and think, you're not there to get your tree fixed up. Club people are usually really helpful.

Seeing is usually the hardest. Once you can see the possibilities, the rest is just technique.

Gavin

[kcpoole]

I very much agree that you should get a workshop on this tree, and make sure you get "hands on " when you so. You will learn much more.

For me the straight trunk section above the bend needs wire and bend the heck out of it to lower to top and give movement. The branch on the right might stay, and the one on the inside of that bend will most likely go tho. At the top of the straight section is a small branch of the right ( opposite you little pinkie finger), that would probably make the future apex.

To make a tree smaller does not mean cut it all off. You can bend the beck out of it to lower them too

Ken

[ADO]

Good advice Gavin

I will certainly be there to listen and learn. I look forward to it.

[shibui]

To make a tree smaller does not mean cut it all off. You can bend the beck out of it to lower them too

Something that I think is overlooked by many is that branches and trunks can be TWISTED as well as bent. Twisting the trunk could put those awkward front branches to the side or maybe at the back.
After a few years a twisted trunk starts to show up with ridges,etc showing the spiral up the trunk. It can also be useful to follow the twisting grain in the trunk when creating shari on such a trunk.