shohin in under a year. HOW?

jme · Post by **jme** » December 21st, 2012, 11:03 pm

I read in 1 of the posts that you can get a shohin from scratch to a nice piece of art in under a year. I was wondering if anyone could tell me or give me some tips on how to do this (plant selection, plant size to start with etc)

Olivecrazy · Post by **Olivecrazy** » December 21st, 2012, 11:20 pm

Its not just shohin that can get to a nice looking tree in under 1 year with the right care right type of tree an some luck a lot can be done very quickly

jme · Post by **jme** » December 22nd, 2012, 7:17 am

Olivecrazy wrote:Its not just shohin that can get to a nice looking tree in under 1 year with the right care right type of tree an some luck a lot can be done very quickly

Is there any chance of giving me some pointers? I'm VERY new to the bonsai world but I'm very keen to learn some of the hidden secrets.

Meagi · Post by **Meagi** » December 22nd, 2012, 7:37 am

Hi Jme
I am only new myself but start with best stock you can afford. Don't be in a hurry to purchase stock look around at whats availaible then go back and purchase what you like.
I made a mistake and bought heaps some that will never make good bonsai .... and have found now good stock saves heaps of time .

bodhidharma · Post by **bodhidharma** » December 22nd, 2012, 7:59 am

Meagi wrote:. and have found now good stock saves heaps of time .

Wise words for all to hear

Meagi · Post by **Meagi** » December 22nd, 2012, 8:18 am

taught from a very wise man

alpineart · Post by **alpineart** » December 22nd, 2012, 8:43 am

Hi jme , mate Ausbonsai just had a shohin competition , if you take a good look at the entries you can see for yourself the difference between using good material as too using ordinary material . Anyone can hack and chop a plant but it take a little more than that to create a little well proportioned tree be it shohin , mame or a two man tree .

Meagi nailed it well for a new comer , seems he not only listens but also learns quickly , something i didn't do in my early days .

Cheers Alpine

Jasonb · Post by **Jasonb** » December 22nd, 2012, 9:11 am

JME,

I agree with everyone above also, the more time you spend looking for good material, the less time you need to spend working at creating beauty as apposed to simply accentuating the inherent beauty already in the tree. I too am new to bonsai, ( just under a year ) and have had to learn that the hard way. But now spend most of my spare time hopping from nursery to nursery just to get the right tree. Employ this, and your journey along bonsai lane will be rewarding.

Regards Jason.

jme · Post by **jme** » December 22nd, 2012, 9:32 am

alpineart wrote:Hi jme , mate Ausbonsai just had a shohin competition , if you take a good look at the entries you can see for yourself the difference between using good material as too using ordinary material . Anyone can hack and chop a plant but it take a little more than that to create a little well proportioned tree be it shohin , mame or a two man tree .

Meagi nailed it well for a new comer , seems he not only listens but also learns quickly , something i didn't do in my early days .

Cheers Alpine

When you say "find good material" what am I looking for? Do you know of any tutorial vids I can watch showing what to buy and what to stay away from etc.
Thanks for your help.

Meagi · Post by **Meagi** » December 22nd, 2012, 9:59 am

Google shohin an look at a few creations ...
Look out for what your after in the pics vids
And keep looking till is imbedded in your mind
Then go to nurseries and keep searching till you
Find what you've pictured
Least that's what I do
Also read read read and read
Luck plays a bit to I think

My gramps told me one day
Take the cotton outta your ears and ram it your
Mouth and you'll learn something one day

Lol took me years to learn what he meant

Guy · Post by **Guy** » December 22nd, 2012, 10:03 am

it also helps if you purchase the plant just before the growing season-you can style and get good power growth straight away

Pup · Post by **Pup** » December 22nd, 2012, 10:22 am

If you read though the Shohin threads there are some excellent tutorials in there. On page 5 is one that I posted, what can be achieved quick time.

Cheers Pup

Post by **kcpoole** » December 22nd, 2012, 9:53 pm

jme wrote:
alpineart wrote:Hi jme , mate Ausbonsai just had a shohin competition , if you take a good look at the entries you can see for yourself the difference between using good material as too using ordinary material . Anyone can hack and chop a plant but it take a little more than that to create a little well proportioned tree be it shohin , mame or a two man tree .

Meagi nailed it well for a new comer , seems he not only listens but also learns quickly , something i didn't do in my early days .

Cheers Alpine
When you say "find good material" what am I looking for? Do you know of any tutorial vids I can watch showing what to buy and what to stay away from etc.
Thanks for your help.

Plant Selection is one of the hardest things with Bonsai to master
Essentially you will be looking for a developed trunk with Taper, movement and good Nebari. You will not get these in a year no matter what so you tree must come with them already.

Probably some initial branching as well

Check the threads in the recently completed shohin comp here viewforum.php?f=140 , and you will without exception, the better trees all started with the above criterion filled

Ken

Andrew Legg · Post by **Andrew Legg** » December 22nd, 2012, 10:14 pm

jme wrote:I read in 1 of the posts that you can get a shohin from scratch to a nice piece of art in under a year. I was wondering if anyone could tell me or give me some tips on how to do this (plant selection, plant size to start with etc)

Howdee Mate,

I'm gonna be a bit controversial here and say that a good tree in one year is not really possible. Sure, you can get a good shape, and one year will allow you to get a good start, but a good tree? Don't think so, and here's why I say this. To get a good tree in a short time (let's work with 2 to 3 years) you need to do a few things. They are:

1.) Find good material.
2.) Find good material.
3.) Find good material.
4.) Find good material.

So, what constitutes good material? Well, for starters something that's gonna grow like stink, because anything slow growing is going to make quick results difficult for pretty obvious reasons. Next up, for quick results you need to have something that has a basic trunk structure in place before you get going. If you want quick results you can't be spending time on growing a trunk! Next up is good root structure, and in particular, good nebari, probably the single most neglected aspect of bonsai. Finally, a bonus is a few good branches in roughly the right spot. The other option is an excess of branches from which you can select ones in the right spot. So in summary:

5.) Find something that is quick growing, has a good basic trunk and nebari structure, and if possible, usable primary branches.
6.) What ever you buy must be healthy and vigorous. Trees with health issues will take time to grow and are unlikely to produce good results in a sort time span.

Now that you have good material, the next step is:

7.) Get it into a good growing mix that will allow optimum growth. A good size plastic or wooden container with good drainage.
8.) Do the basic work as soon as possible. Don't muck around. Be aggressive in defining the shape and design of the tree. Commit and take bold steps to achieve the end goal. Don't dilly daddle about.
9.) Once the basic structure is in place, your main goal is to maintain tree health. A healthy tree will grow well and you will get results in a shorter period of time. This means allowing the tree to recover from design work and allowing a period of regrowth for the tree to establish new vigour. Don't over-work the tree otherwise it will never keep it's vigour.
10.) Water and feed the tree religiously to keep the tree in good condition.
11.) Finally, put the tree into a bonsai pot at the end of the process. A bonsai pot with constrained roots is likely to slow growth unless you are really prepared to water and feed very well. The good side of this is that you are more likely to choose an appropriate pot once the tree is closer to its final design and size than you are when the tree is small and young.

So, the big question - what species are good for this? Well, I find elms and ficus to be particularly good, with the broad-leaf trees generally better than junipers and pines etc, with the exception of junipers that are shaped from what exists. A healthy olive is also a good option. On the indigenous tree list, you'd have to ask the Aussies.

To come back to my first point, I have found that I can get a reasonable primary structure going in about a year or two with very good initial material selection, but remember that a truly good bonsai differs from a passable bonsai in the level of refinement and detailed care. It is all very well creating a pad of foliage, but how does the branch structure look underneath? So you have a primary branch. What about secondary and tertiary structure? What about internode lengths? What about root structure? What about . . . . . the list goes on, and these are all things that take time to do really well. Of course, if you look at very small trees in the smaller range of shohin, the trees will take less time to reach the final design goal, but still, the refinement will take time. If you find a trunk that screams literati, and it has all the right bends and what have you, a tree can be designed and achieved far quicker than a good formal upright style tree, so, again, style choice and the 'closeness' of the tree to the end goal plays a big part in the time to develop.

Moral of my story? You can achieve good results in a short time. To the untrained eye they may look great, but to satisfy the more critical eye, you will need more water through the pot!

That's my opinion for what it's worth.

Cheers,

Andrew

nealweb · Post by **nealweb** » December 22nd, 2012, 11:45 pm

Wow! Well writen andrew and also KC.
Yes, initial selection of material is crucial. When we start bonsai often we want quick results, but also we want to do it all ourselves. We want it to be completely my own creation, from the very start. So we only want to get a regular nursery plant, or maybe a collected plant. Collected is great, you can benefit from years of age and gnarlty development in nature but it will probably still take time to collect, recover!!!!!! don't rush this! and refine.

Then later as we have done some bonsai for a few years we mellow out a bit and realise its ok to let someone else start the process and then take over and make the tree our own (an ego humbling really). So...for my money i would avoid general nurseries and go to a club or a bonsai nursey and get a good advanced starter that has been grown specifically for bonsai. It will already have a good established nebari, will have been grown for taper and movement in the trunk (which is not the objective in a commercial garden nursery) and will be a species suitable to bonsai. You will be off to a very good start to achieving a great tree in a shorter time.

You can have 10 cuttings or straight trunked, no nebari nursery trees taking up space on your benches and maybe 1 will be a good bonsai in many years to come (and that one will be special to you I guess but....) or you can spend the same money on one really good starter tree that is grown from the start to be a bonsai and you will get a great tree from it much sooner and can call it your own work with the initial help of some bonsai friends and enjoy its bonsai growth and development for years to come.

Cheers!! Happy xmas and happy bonsai'ing !!!

AusBonsai