Clip and grow.

[Damian Bee]

I am using clip and grow technique on my Syzigium, they take it rather well due to their vigor. I will show some pics, but not just yet as I need some spare time (which I don't have much of, anyone have any spare?)

Does anyone else employ this method?
What are your results like?

[Bretts]

They are a great tree to work with but I say trees in general will reward you if you spend the time wiring everything.

[anttal63]

hey damo here is an interesting topic to debate. brett is right they go hand in hand, although i would accredit 70% of your trees success to wiring. wire wire and then more wire, every branch and branchlet. without you wont make great bonsai. you might make ok bonsai but not great.

[MelaQuin]

With lillipillies it is good to employ both clip and grow as well as wiring but LPs can get such thick foliage that any advantage to the sharp angles you get with clip and grow are negated by the foliage. Clip and grow has another advantage in that I find the branchlets so brittle that wiring or removing wire also means a few branchlets go as well. The ones I have grown I use wire to shape the heavier branches and use pruning to direct growth but losing a few branchlets is not a problem as a healthy lillipilly is a pruner's delight and requires CONSTANT trimming!!.

[Damian Bee]

Hmmm, I have recently got back on the wiring bus but I still like my clip and grow. I am going to see what sort of tree clip and grow can create. So far I am happy with the results but they are only a few years old.

Is there anyone here who practices this method entirely on any of their trees?

[stymie]

I must admit to clipping my trees exclusively once the basic shape has been reached. An occasional use of wire has to be resorted to only to train in new growths which are required,.

[FlyBri]

Gday Damo & Co!

Having spent the day hacking at my Lilly Pillies, I must say that I find Clip'n'Grow to be the best way for me to approach that particular group of trees. Trying to wire branches any thicker than a couple of millimetres thick is to risk snapping said branches off completely. Just this afternoon, I snapped a 4mm thick branch out of its collar by trying to bend it less than 5 degrees...

The vigour and massive budding on a healthy Lilly Pilly is such that a well managed C&G regime should produce a really nicely ramified and tapered tree.

Thanks.

Fly.

[Bretts]

Clip and grow will give you a ramified and taperd tree but it will not give you natural curves to go with it.

[Damian Bee]

As soon as my camera is charged and I have some seconds spare I will post some images of clip and grow Lilly Pilly for you. Critique will be most welcome (how else will I learn? ).

[lennard]

When growing a formal upright tree it would be better to go with the clip and grow because you dont need curvy branches.
But I agree, when forming the tree use wires and when just maintaining clip and grow would be enough.

Lennard

[FlyBri]

Clip and grow will give you a ramified and taperd tree but it will not give you natural curves to go with it.

Gday Brettles!

I beg to differ on the 'natural curves' issue: on a tree such as the Lilly Pilly mentioned earlier in the thread, back-budding is so prolific that Clip'N'Grow can produce many new branches to choose from, at many different angles and orientations. If we choose wisely, 'natural' curves will appear over time, as the branches thicken and the angles soften.

Now that I think about it a little deeper, I might suggest that it is a 'natural' form of Clip'N'Grow that largely determines the branch structure of trees in the wild. When in full swing, a tree will produce masses of tender new growth at the tips of the branches, and it is these tips which are the most susceptible to damage. Whether it is frost or wind or sun damage, or attacks from insects, possums or pesky cockies, the new growth at the tip of a branch is under constant threat of being "nipped in the bud", causing most species to ramify and redirect.

With deciduous trees, Winter dormancy is effectively the same as tip pruning: the growth of strong leader branches is brought to a halt in Autumn, and in Spring much of the vigour of the former leader is spent on new buds further down the tree, creating 'natural' ramification and movement (in fact, the same could be said for any tree which experiences a dormant period).

When we employ Clip'N'Grow, we are merely enhancing and/or exaggerating processes that we can easily observe in nature. This is not to say that I reject the use of wire in the styling of Bonsai: look through my posts and you'll see that I wire almost everything I can get my hands on. However, in the case of very brittle specimens such as Lilly Pillies, I find the Clip'N'Grow method to be at least as useful as the use of wire.

I'd be interested in hearing what you all think.

Thanks.

Fly.

[FlyBri]

It may be the Cold & Flu drugs kicking in, but I've had another thought regarding 'natural curves': a curve is nothing more than a series of straight lines joined together by related (obtuse) angles...

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Fly.

[Bretts]

With deciduous trees, Winter dormancy is effectively the same as tip pruning: the growth of strong leader branches is brought to a halt in Autumn, and in Spring much of the vigour of the former leader is spent on new buds further down the tree, creating 'natural' ramification and movement (in fact, the same could be said for any tree which experiences a dormant period).

I have always thought that when a deciduous tree breaks dormancy then it returns to normal growing with the top being dominant.? Ramification happens when the internodes become short from the tree reaching it's maximum height.

I can't say for sure that I am correct and you are wrong about the clip and grow on lilly pilly. I have only worked on one that was any where near fine wiring see here
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=28&start=30
When I got this tree I shortened it and wired the main branches from that point I only remember clipping it as my main aim from then was to get the bottom branches thicker. I still have this tree but I have loaned it to the Orange Bonsai house at the moment and since I enjoyed working with it so much I got two more and have started from scratch. I would think this first tree would benefit greatly from a defoliation and fine wiring.
I will take a picture of the two new ones I have started and see if you have anything similar to these three and we can compare the ramification and movement of the branches over time if you like. It could be fun and it will at least make me diligent to continue wiring. I will even let you wire the main branches if need be.
I wish you had not told me that lilly pilly branches are brittle because now I will be concerned next time I try. I bent the main branches of my first one with no issue on it's first styling. I felt the same way when members stated that queensland bottle tree are hard to ramify. Mine was doing great with plenty of buds before I was told that. I hope I can repeat that again with it this season. I will see what pictures I can drag up of the lilly pilly first styling to remind me what was achieved.

Oh and get well soon mate. That swin flu is a killer

[Pup]

I am with Stymie on this one all my trees even the smallest are wired. Then when I am happy with there form I revert to clip and grow for ramification.
I believe that wireing is the essesnce of good Bonsai practice.
Also the difference between good and bad. Just a new twist on it

PS get well soon Fly I know that one 4 weeks and still not 100%.

[Damian Bee]

Thats pouring petrol onto the fire Pup.

Clip and grow technique has been practised for a long time and still is, it also produces some great results. I wouldn't go as far as pigeon holing it as producing bad trees, wiring can also produce bad trees.