Pruning vs. letting it grow

[Scooter_M]

Hey guys,

This is a bit of a n00b question to ask after having bonsai for over a year, but im still a bit confused on this one. Obviously young trees need to grow, but i've been watching some video's again with the new growing season hitting, and i keep running into two types of videos/techniques.

Theres the whole thing about cutting back longer branches to 1-3 leaves. I get the concept of doing that, causing lots of smaller branches to come off etc... but then i watch some videos and they say just let it grow for a few years. .. which seems a bit pointless to me, why buy a bonsai just to shove it in a corner and never touch it..

None of the videos seem to say if there is an age of the tree when you shouldnt be pruning it back to 1-3 leaves, and when you should be letting it grow, even if just for a season. I've even found videos when you can see bald patches along the longer branches where its been left too long and then they just chop of the entire branch anyway to get growth further down.

I understand the bonsai concept of cutting back to 1-3 leaves every 2-3 months in the growing season alot more than the wild growing in my opinion. Forcing it small and letting it thicken up over time.

Now obviously you wouldnt do it a <12 month old, but would you start cutting but straglers on a 2yr old? 4yr old?

Cheers in advance all!

[hard1all]

I'm not a big fan of the 'just let it grow long' approach
seems, more often than not, to produce branches lacking in taper

also, pruning is not just about producing ramification
it's also about re-distributing vigour around the tree
so, where you prune, how hard, and when
also has to be considered

in Lingnan Penjing they will often leave as much as a third of the tree completely un-pruned for just this reason
they'll happily exhibit the tree in this condition as it's showing a correct approach

[shibui]

I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve.
If you want your tree to thicken or get bigger you have 2 choices - keep trimming and wait many years or let all the shoots grow really long then cut back hard.
The 2nd will produce results in just a couple of years. There are drawbacks with fast growing: not all attempts work out; you will usually have large scars that will take more years to heal up; some species are more difficult to develop this way; you have far less control over the resulting shape and style.
If you have the time and patience the slow way produces a superior result but few of us are willing to put in the 15-20 years needed to achieve a great tree.
So, letting it grow freely is just used to quickly develop a trunk to the size you want.

When your tree has grown to the thickness and size you want then you MUST start regular trimming to develop the primary branching, secondary and tertiary ramification.

After you have achieved the desired branching I find I need to trim even more often because even letting shoots grow 20 cm or so thickens branches where you don't want and good branch structure can be ruined in just 1 season with apex branches thickening too much, reverse taper or lumps.

There are always exceptions like when you want part of a tree to recover vigour or to thicken a certain branch, etc but that is the basic way I develop and maintain my trees.

As with all living things there are many ways to the same end result and different techniques will work in different climates so you will often find in bonsai that different people will be using different techniques to achieve the same results; and they will almost all tell you theirs is the BEST or ONLY way that works. Don't get distracted with lots of different opinions - Pick 1 that you feel comfortable with and use it for a few years at least to see results.

[longd_au]

I think it is also worth repeating a point that several experience members have mentioned on this forum and that is to keep an eye on the root if you are letting it grow for several years.
As you know, the growth above the ground usually reflect the growth below the soil and you don't want to find one or two thick roots when it is time to dig.
It is better to ensure you already have nice radial root with even growth before planting it in the ground.

Due to my lack of time now and my preparation to have plenty of stock when I do have time in the future, I plant most of my pre-bonsai into the ground, including quite advance stock.

[Scooter_M]

Cheers for all the info guys.

Yeah it all makes sense, thanks for the clarifications. I just could never get my head around the art to it all if it was just a set and forget item.

Think im going to for the constant trimming option. i like the engagement of it all, and i also have a swiss shepherd, so leaving things in the ground to let them grow usually consists of being dug up, or chewed. So i guess the pruning way suits me better

Cheers all.

[Boics]

Hello Scooter.

Just thought I'd chime in here.

See this thread here... viewtopic.php?f=104&t=13186&hilit=+ulmus+procera

After many years of "Bonsai" I've only realised in more recent times how important it is to actually let your tree's grow a little.
If you keep pruning, pinching and playing yes you will have more ultimate control but in my opinion you will often never see or notice results..

As has been already said it is very very dependent on the stage of ones trees but the biggest lesson I have taken out of my more recent infatuation with Bonsai is that one must let things grow a little. Tree's build strength from leaves, the more you prune the more you take away a tree's potential to grow.

Perhaps post a few examples of the tree's your wondering about in this thread and we can provide some more specific advise based on the examples shown?

[Tambrand]

Ground growing, should be done in ground prepared as one prepares bonsai soil, to get away from the development of a few thick roots, and possibly killing the tree when digging it up.
You can also add on colanders, tiles and whatever else you need for what you want to achieve, trunk thickening, radial root distribution.

Some trees have to be ground grown to get trunk size, others have thick cambiums and large pots will suffice. Observation of natural abilities, and lots of tests / research.
Long branch extensions will do nothing, example - Fukien tea.

Some trees don't heal well and the wood rots, so you have to figure out a game plan, small wounds, wood hardeners, decorative holes etc,.....

It is with experience that one works in Bonsai.
Best of growing.
Tambrand

[Scooter_M]

the main one in question is the chinese elm i was asking about in another thread, picture below, i've cut it back now to give it some shape, but now im unsure if to leave it or keep trimming it

IMAG0543.jpg

[Tambrand]

Scooter,

in large plastic pots, small plants don't often do well, especially if you use a hose to water with.

It is often easier to start the small plant in a small pot and when it becomes root bound, you go to say 2.5 cm larger with the sides and bottom.
Additionally the soil must be designed to be very freely draining.

You can test for a root bound state by [a] Observing how quickly the water dries out, Very gently and cautiously lift the tree by it's base and see if the pot follows. Leave your other hand below the pot for accidents.
Please note most of my trees are in full sun and when rootbound, will dry out / slightly wilt by 12 noon.

Observation on the Southern Chinese elm, it takes close to 2 m of branch to close a 2.5 cm wound in about a year to year and a half.
The length of the pot being equal to the height of the tree and the depth is around 8 cm.

As usual test all new ideas on expendable cuttings.
Later.
Tambrand

* Some trees prefer wider , shallow pots for good growing and often nothing deeper than 15 cms.
Note - I hand water and my soil is [ 5mm, 2/3 inorganic ] to 1/3 organic [ or less on the organic ]

[Scooter_M]

Hey tambrand, thanks for the tips and info, although can you elaborate on why it's bad to be in such a big pot? I went with this theory as I felt it was be the closest thing to being in the ground having far more space to grow?? The soil is pretty free drain about 60 potting mix 40 permits with down gravel through out . Although yeah in no way drinks it as fast as urs. Will it be ok to repot at tthis time or wait till next spring?

[Reece]

Hey tambrand, thanks for the tips and info, although can you elaborate on why it's bad to be in such a big pot? I went with this theory as I felt it was be the closest thing to being in the ground having far more space to grow?? The soil is pretty free drain about 60 potting mix 40 permits with down gravel through out . Although yeah in no way drinks it as fast as urs. Will it be ok to repot at tthis time or wait till next spring?

Yeah Im confused. How does the tree know if its in a big pot or in the ground? Whats the difference, besides it getting root bound eventually? Ive always gone with your theory scooter.....


EDIT: Great thread by the way!

[Boics]

Search the forum for "perched water tables" and "over potting" There are a few threads and in particular a link or two that describe the reasons that a large pot is not always the answer it would appear.

[shibui]

although can you elaborate on why it's bad to be in such a big pot?

Theory is that the plant cannot use all the water in the pot so the mix goes bad and roots will then rot.
I think that this may be good advice left over from the old days when growers used soil as potting medium. Sometimes these myths just seem to keep getting propagated even though they are no longer appropriate. I have certainly never had any problems with overpotting trees and have used it often to get trees to grow a bit faster but not so much as in the open ground.

Also note that Tam is in West Indies so conditions there far different from here. That often makes abig difference to what works and what does not.

[Tambrand]

Yes, Shibui,

it was the overpotting, that I was getting at, but simply from the idea that the soil would stay too wet.

Never have used earth soil, always a blend of builder's gravel [ silica ], crushed red earthenware brick, and an organic [ compost / cocopeat / sustainable Canadian peatmoss with perlite ].

Which is why the hose bit comes in.

I hope the guys have also looked up the topics listed by Boics.
Thanks for clarifying.
Help appreciated.
Tambrand