Need help with direction for this largish trident maple

[Josh]

I got given this Trident maple a while back. It was dug from a back yard and then root pruned and potted up into a grow box (didn't have a big enough pot). I've been looking at this tree for a while now and can't really see where to go with it. I'll chuck a couple of layers on it and will then trunk chop, just not sure where to chop and what direction to take the tree in. Any suggestions would be appreciated. It need regrowing after a trunk and more than likely need several trunk chops over the next few years to get taper.

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[kcpoole]

pic #4.
Take of the top of the straight trunk at the branch to the right. Cut that one the about the same distance up or a little lower.
cut the right trunk just below the junction on the left trunk.

Remove all other trunks ( i cannot really see them) so cannot see if they will work or not.
Result is a twin trunk maple

These ones of walter Pall might be a help for inspiration too.
https://www.walter-pall.de/Bonsai%20Gall ... index.html
https://www.walter-pall.de/Bonsai%20Gall ... index.html

or maybe my own Liquidambar here (although it is nowhere as good as walters', nor as big) viewtopic.php?f=129&t=13727#p143423

Ken

[shibui]

I agree with KC about the front. The nebari on the back is quite poor and from the side it is very narrow so photos 3 and 4 show the best base.
However, being a big fan of multi trunk/ clump style trees, I would not hurry to remove all the other trunks. It is hard to judge from the photos but I think the large trunk at the back is very close to the main trunk and may have to go. depending how it really looks you might be able to shorten it and grow a new leader to provide depth at the back.
The little branch on the left will provide a good rising leader for the left side.
Right side is a little hard to judge again. From the side it looks like the 2 trunks there are in line and close together. Ideally the larger one would be closer to the main trunk with a smaller one on the outside but you might be able to persuade the smaller one to fill an area toward the back??
The fork on the central tree (where Ken has advised cutting ) is an obvious place to cut to reduce height and add taper and will then set the size of the future tree. Reduce all other trunks in proportion - thinner ones are shorter and the further out from the main trunk are shorter also. remember to allow for a new leader to grow so need to cut shorter than the final height.

If I had any virt skill I'd try to do a diagram to make it clearer but

[alpineart]

Hi Josh , mate to me this would make for a good triple trunk over time . Most may disagree but i would be inclined to remove the 2nd branch growing inwards and utilize the straight trunks . Using a jack between the main and second trunk to bend it outward or using a saw cut to do a controlled split at the base to lean the second trunk out .

There is subtle curve in the main trunk a good curve in the third trunk , try to replicate that into the second trunk . Use the height to your advantage to spread or bend the second trunk . Failing that layer them off and train new leaders on all trunks .

If you don't like that idea , layer the main trunk off just above the first branch and balance the 2 other trunks witha similar chop .

Cheers . Alpine

[Elmar]

Whatever option you take, there are a LOT of new trees in there - rather than just cutting them off ... Heaps of air layers to be taken!
If you are inclined to do that?!?
Nice problem to have...


Cheers
EZ
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Josh]

Thanks for the replies guys. The nebari will need work on the back, I plan to graft some roots on there eventually. I have taken some better shots of the trunks. I could go a triple trunk however I think the small trunk being in the middle may look strange. I think it could be bent to the back. Unfortunately the large trunk at the back needs to go as it is close (touching) the front trunk (see below). I've done a couple of virts for the different chops as mentioned to see which is best. Interested in your thoughts.

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Also can I airlayer now??

Thanks
Josh

[Boics]

Last pic perhaps?

Air layer should be fine now i believe.
Optimal even?

[shibui]

Your virt #2 is the look I was trying to get to. the smallest trunk could be important to fill the back if you take out the large rear trunk.
Alpine was suggesting putting a cut down between the main trunk and the large rear one then it should be possible to move the back one away from the main trunk. Having a second look I think the rear trunk is still too thick to keep, even if it was moved.
You may have trouble getting new roots from the rear if you cut that trunk off. There will be a large scar above so no incentive for roots to develop. Still worth a try.

You should be able to air layer now but is anything on this tree worth layering? Size alone is not valuable. Ask whether you really need more substandard tridents? The sooner you cut the sooner it will start to heal. layering will only delay the final cut and subsequent healing.

[matlea]

Would cutting the rear trunk off in stages work (half thickness removed) so that it can heal over quicker...? May also help with the issue of keeping roots??

[Josh]

Would cutting the rear trunk off in stages work (half thickness removed) so that it can heal over quicker...? May also help with the issue of keeping roots??

The thing I don't get with this method is: I usually hollow out the cut a bit so it heals over flat. Obviously you can't do that when using this method. So do you end up with a lump once it heals??

Josh.

[Josh]

Your virt #2 is the look I was trying to get to. the smallest trunk could be important to fill the back if you take out the large rear trunk.
Alpine was suggesting putting a cut down between the main trunk and the large rear one then it should be possible to move the back one away from the main trunk. Having a second look I think the rear trunk is still too thick to keep, even if it was moved.
You may have trouble getting new roots from the rear if you cut that trunk off. There will be a large scar above so no incentive for roots to develop. Still worth a try.

You should be able to air layer now but is anything on this tree worth layering? Size alone is not valuable. Ask whether you really need more substandard tridents? The sooner you cut the sooner it will start to heal. layering will only delay the final cut and subsequent healing.

Hi Neal. Yeah I think the back trunk has to go as its equal to or larger than the front one. I might try getting some roots before chopping or just thread graft.
One reason for airlayer was to give me stock for grafting branches or roots that matched this tree. I'd only airlayer near the top where it branches if using to grow another tree.
Thinking I may just chop and get on with it though. Thanks for your comments.

Josh.

[CraigM]

Excellent potential. Was personally looking at something closer to your first virtual, but would only keep the left branch, and let that go for the season. Chop back next year and should have a stunning powerful informal. New buds that form at the cut, can be used to develop branch on right hand side. Most the big scars should be on the back of the tree, and will heal, and add character over team depending on how done and treated. Root grafts should work using young seedlings to improve nebari.

The other I quite like is the new pics you took, think number 6, from the rear left. Still think I would go for informal though.

Interesting challenge.

[treeman]

pic #4.
Take of the top of the straight trunk at the branch to the right. Cut that one the about the same distance up or a little lower.
cut the right trunk just below the junction on the left trunk.

Remove all other trunks ( i cannot really see them) so cannot see if they will work or not.
Result is a twin trunk maple

These ones of walter Pall might be a help for inspiration too.
https://www.walter-pall.de/Bonsai%20Gall ... index.html
https://www.walter-pall.de/Bonsai%20Gall ... index.html

or maybe my own Liquidambar here (although it is nowhere as good as walters', nor as big) viewtopic.php?f=129&t=13727#p143423

Ken

Ken, I don't know, is it just me or do you not think the branches on these trees (your links) are very rough and disorganized? The kind of trees the Japanese use as examples to cut most off and start again? There are countless examples of this in BT. I think there are better places to look for inspiration don't you?

[Bougy Fan]

Are you kidding me treeman ? I would give my first born to have any of the trees in Walter Palls collection. I would be very interested to see you tell him his trees have crap branching and they all need to be cut off. I think they are great examples for what Josh can aim for. I looked back through the posts but must have missed the advice you are giving ? Perhaps you can pass on some of your own inspiration ?

[matlea]

The thing I don't get with this method is: I usually hollow out the cut a bit so it heals over flat. Obviously you can't do that when using this method. So do you end up with a lump once it heals??

Josh.[/quote]