ID help please, cedar?

[Beginner Bonsai]

Hi All,

Any thoughts on what species this is? I've been given a sapling that I hope to train. I'm guessing some sort of cedar.

Thanks in advance
Andrew





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[Watto]

Sorry I can't help you, but I hope someone will chime in with the correct ID. There are some very knowledgeable tree people here.

[alpineart]

Hi BB , Mate it looks like an Atlas Cedar - Cedrus Atlantica , more of an upright growth habit compared to the Deodara Cedar . The needles are shorten and it makes for a good bonsai specimen in various styles .
Check out around the area of the base in and around the other plants and look for tiny blue pine like seedlings , if this has produced a seedling the tree has viable seed which is quite rare in these cedars .

Cheers Alpineart

[Beginner Bonsai]

Thanks for you help Alpineheart.

My young tree has germinated from seed fall. The trees have sentimental value as the house was owned by my grandparents and is know owned by my parents. Hopefully I can grow some great trees.

I might try a few cuttings. What would be the best time to take them?


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[shibui]

The needles look a bit long for atlantica. The overall shot shows it a bit 'hairy' so I'd say Cedrus deodar. Atlatica looks much more neat and refined as a larger tree Deodars still grow upright as younger trees and only spread out in old age.
Either way they do make quite good bonsai but are very slow to develop.
Not usually grow from cuttings as they are very difficult. I think I can remember one successful strike in the last 30 years so rarely put cuttings of cedar in now. Try growing from seed but they might need stratifying. I've sowed seed the last few years and only had a couple germinate.

[Beginner Bonsai]

Thanks for that Shibui! That seems like a better fit.

After your experiences with cuttings I think I'll just cherish the one I have [WINKING FACE].

I've got a couple of styling questions if you wouldn't mind? Attached is a pic of the young tree I have. I would like to re create the larger trees, probably with a formal upright style? What are my steps to introduce taper to the leader? Do I chop this spring and choose new leader?

My plan for the tree would be 1. Wire the branches and trunk. Is a formal upright trunk dead straight? 2. The pot and soil are not good, I would like to do it ASAP but I guess I need to wait until spring?

Sorry for the long post but your help would appreciated.

Thanks,
Andrew




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[shibui]

Formal upright trunk is as straight as possible. That's one reason we see very few formal upright bonsai - it is very hard to grow a really good straight trunk with thickness and taper.
Don't let that stop you trying though. Best way to get taper is to prune and replace the apex with a thinner side branch so cut it back and make a new apex with a side branch. Wire and bend so the new trunk is as straight as possible. A small deviation is ok because it will grow out as the tree thickens. I prune and wire any time so you could even do that now if you want.

I have only repotted cedars during the usual spring repotting window but I know others who assure me that mid summer is also a good time. I also know quite a few who repot conifers in autumn but not sure about autumn repotting for cedar. Looks healthy enough in the pot it is in so should not hurt to wait for spring.

[Beginner Bonsai]

Awesome. Thank you very much.


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[treeman]

Good on you for attemting a formal upright. There are nowhere near enough of them. In fact I hardly ever see them. You've picked a difficult tree though. The cedars (and especially the deodar) is very hard to set in position with wire. It always seems to move when you remove it. It is really important that you encourage as many branches as possible. When you are happy with the trunk diameter, the branches will be to thick so you will need to remove (some of) them. You need to have lots to replace them with and that is not easy unless you start with a very young seedling and prune it often to force more side branching.
The way to do this is as Shibui suggests ie: cutting and replacing the leader, and you need to do it every year starting now!
Unfortunately this probably means cutting off everything down to the 3rd branch and wiring that up. Next year, the third or 4th shoot on that branch will become the leader....and so on.
Good luck!

[treeman]

Good on you for attempting a formal upright. There are nowhere near enough of them. In fact I hardly ever see them. You've picked a difficult tree though. The cedars (and especially the deodar) is very hard to set in position with wire. It always seems to move when you remove it. It is really important that you encourage as many branches as possible. When you are happy with the trunk diameter, the branches will be to thick so you will need to remove (some of) them. You need to have lots to replace them with and that is not easy unless you start with a very young seedling and prune it often to force more side branching.
The way to do this is as Shibui suggests ie: cutting and replacing the leader, and you need to do it every year starting now!
Unfortunately this probably means cutting off everything down to the 3rd branch and wiring that up. Next year, the third or 4th shoot on that branch will become the leader....and so on.
Good luck!

[Beginner Bonsai]

Thanks for the encouragement Treeman! I must be brave or a naive beginner. I have heard that Cedars are renowned for reverting back to their ways after wire is removed.

Unfortunately this probably means cutting off everything down to the 3rd branch and wiring that up. Next year, the third or 4th shoot on that branch will become the leader....and so on.
Good luck!

This is really useful information for me. Do you or anyone else know where on the net or what books give good information on 'building' a tree?

Thanks again.