Japanese Zelkova

[doolz_e]

Hi all,

This is my first post on here and coming from a complete novice angle so am hoping someone out there can help guide me.

I purchased a Japanese Zelkova (elm) from a bonsai nursery as what I understand is a starter about 4 years old on a black planter pot. I am still working out what I want to acheive with this piece in terms of size, shape, etc. Couple of things I am curious about at the moment:

1. Have a look at the pics below (sorry about quality on some was in the backyard at sundown taking these with a tired baby in one arm) and tell me if you think the bottom half of the trunk looks unhealthy. It appears an off green/grey colour almost like mould/moss dried out over time. Is this normal. Unsure as the top half looks a nice healthy grey (of which this species is referred to...Grey Bark). If there is something wrong here is it worth me continuing with developing this piece?

2. If so then I was planning to plant out to a trainer pot. I am tossing up between going to a polystyrene box, pond basket or putting in the ground contained in a collinder or with a plastic sheet underneath the roots as per alpinart's post: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=1994&hilit=pumpin+trunks

The roots look fairly healthy but I am unsure on how to prepare for the next stage i.e. branch/leader pruning, roots, new soil, timing. I am also wanting to know when can I expect new shoots/leaves ion this baby? It has just hit spring here in Melbourne and all my other trees are kicking in with new growth.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
D

[Bretts]

Hi Doolz welcome.
The differnt colour is fine it is either from being under the soil or is just from age.

If this was my tree I would place wire around the trunk just above the root junction and little knot as indicated. Or any of the other techniques you see in this two part article.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATNebari.html
You could chop the trunk at the same time also as indicated then let it grow wild for a year check the roots trim the top and probably let grow wild for another year. Then you will have some great stock to work with.
Zelkova are one of the last to come out of dormancy so no worries about it being behind the others shooting out.

P1010587.jpg

[kcpoole]

I would chop as brett says

Teh thick trunk at the junction, make a sloping cut and again on the new leader

Apply some wire to get movement in the junction of the new leader to the lower trunk and tehn let go mad for a season. Watch that teh wire does not cut in at all and if need be reapply.

Ken

[doolz_e]

Hey thanks for the replies and advice guys. I will be definately trying what you have suggested.

Couple more questions:

1. Had a look at the link to the Nebari article and will be definately trying the layering with the trunk. I may have a problem putting in the ground coz I am in a rental. Do you think a polystyrene box or pond basket would achieve the same results. I have heard that the pond baskets are good for developing the finer roots as they have the mash sides. has anyone tried this during training/development phase?

2. What soil would you suggest when I replant into ground/box? Do I need to do anything with the roots other than the tourniquet wire above the current root ball?

3. kcpoole, you suggest trimming the main trunk down where Brett mentioned but on an angle. Why is that? And should I trim back or get rid of any other leaders/shoots below the trim points you guys indicated?

Thanks again for your input. I love these forums and everyones magnificent input. I will post photos of stages and how they progress throughout the years but any other suggestions in the meantime would be fab.

Cheers
Doolz

[bodhidharma]

if you cut it on an angle it blends and tapers better, rule of thumb is ...measure the trunk thickness, then measure down same distance and cut on that angle. Reading back that sounds a bit techy but you can pretty much guess it after a while.

[Asus101]

If you want to focus on any point of the tree, it should be the roots.
Planting it in a box will be fine, you can get just as good results in a box as you can in the ground, but you can control the roots a lot better.
Zelkova's are vigorous growers, it should put out new roots from a layer well. Just remember when potting up after the layer is done, to be very selective with what roots you keep. They are at their best done as a broom, but it slightly difficult to do. There is a great deal of reading n the subject in bonsai today from japanese growers. Besides the months to work, its all the same principle.

[shibui]

Asus is correct - Japanese bonsai growers will only show zelkova as a broom style. That's why everyone is suggesting layering and cutting back the top. Broom style should have strong, radial roots, a straight, vertical trunk and several branches arising from the same height at the top of the trunk. It is harder to do properly than you would think.
However, we are not Japanese bonsai growers and are still able to choose to grow trees in styles that we enjoy.
Zelkova is about the last to bud here too. No movement in any of mine yet.
When potting into boxes or any container use good quality potting mix. Garden soil is not good in pots.

[doolz_e]

Thanks again for the input guys. Will definately do a bit more research into getting a broom style out of this little baby. I have called it "Al" by the way (not sure if it is appropriate to name a bansai. I have heard of others doing it.)

Couple more quick questions:

1. Should I cut back the other branches/leaders around and below the main leader that Bretts has suggested to trim and wire?

2. Should I be using using cutting paste on the angled cut on the trunk and also at the end of the trimmed back leaders.

3. Is all of this ok to do now or should I be waiting for winter?

4. What weight wire would you use for the tourniquet section and also for the wiring of these branches? I have only 2mm at home at the moment and I don't think that will be heavy enough for the job.

5. Can't seem to find any instructions on how to tie off the tourniquet wire loop. I am guessing just wrap around and then twist until it tightens causing slight ring bark, cutting into the bark and cambium????

6. I have also read of people putting small slices above the tourniquet wire and putting some root hormone on there to encourage new shoots quicker I suppose. Is it worth pursuing this approach or should you just let nature take it's course?

Sorry about all these questions. Feel like a bit of a hack but am thirsty for knowledge on tackling this piece and getting right instead of just going in blind folded.

Cheers
Doolz

[Asus101]

Asus is correct - Japanese bonsai growers will only show zelkova as a broom style.

There is a bonsai today edition 70 something that has japanese zelkova displays not in broom. Found it last night, I'll post the exact edition tomorrow.

[kcpoole]

Hi doolz
What to you want to appluy a torniquet for? do you want to layer it off?

If you want to make a broom style, you need to cut back all shoots but 2 at the top of the trunk
You will need to cut flat across the top then have 2 ( or more ) branches coming from the top of the tree at the cut. they all meet at one point to make a spreading canopy.

I use Cut paste on all my cuts. I believe it helps to roll over neater. Many don;t believe in it, but is a personal choice

If the tree has not sprouted yet then you can cut now. I make big cuts on deciduous trees in winter when dormant

Wire size is dependent on branch stiffness. use whatever size you need to hold the shape, or double up a smaller guage if you need to. Hold the wire about 1 inch from the end, and push against the branch with the tip of the wire. If the branch moves then the wilre can hold it when you bend. If the wire bends then it is not thick enough

Ken

[doolz_e]

Hi Ken,

Yeah I am think or using a torniquet to ground layer as suggested by Brett on the first reply. Would like to give it a couple more years to develop better nebari whilst training in the meantime, trying to get as much crazy growth through the top.

I am considering the broom style after Ausus101 and shibui mentioned it as a traditional style for the Zelkova. I am confused a bit now though. You mention cutting the top flat to let the new shoots setup a broom foundation. However Brett suggested different cuts earlier in this post (refer to his red marking on my photo). I am assuming that this will develop a different style to broom as the main leader it to remain (trimmed down) and the trunk cut on an angle.

Am I right in assuming that the the earlier suggestion would not develop into a broom?

One article that is giving me influence on what to do with this tree is this one:

http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATdeve ... bonsai.htm

However that is an informal upright and I am deciding whether to go broom style. Will wait to have a look at the issue of Bonsai Today that Auss101 will be posting later. I have already seen some other images of the Zelkova in Broom and I like the style. Haven't seen too many as informal upright but I am sure it is possile as anything is in this wonderful art.

The thing I am find hard to get info on is how to tie the torniquet and that was where I was asking what weight to use. Can anyone help me in this department?

Cheers
Doolz

[Asus101]

If you want to make a broom style, you need to cut back all shoots but 2 at the top of the trunk
You will need to cut flat across the top then have 2 ( or more ) branches coming from the top of the tree at the cut. they all meet at one point to make a spreading canopy.

Looking at the trunk it would not suit a broom. It doesn't have the thickness nor is it straight enough to pull off a broom styled tree.
I would look at other styles, see what the tree says to you, not what you say to the tree.

[kcpoole]

Bretts initial suggestions were for a informal upright style tree.

A broom style is a Very formal style and very hard to do properly. Check this site for some idea on how to do a broom http://bonsaiprimer.com/styles/broom/broom.html .

The way to start is a short Straight powerful tree with good radiating Nebari. Chop it flat across the top with a V in the centre and then hope you get 2 branches growing in the correct places on either side of the cut
if not chop it start again

Whith the branches, wire it grow up and out and trim, grow and wire to achieve the desired effect

Ken

[doolz_e]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions once again guys.

I did actually see that link Ken. Pretty crazy looking v cut on that maple. Would tools would you use for cutting either the "V" for the broom or the "Angle" for the informal upright on a trunk of this width?

Either way I have to agree with Ausus101 and get a feeling from what the tree is doing and not what I want to do. I will inspect the trunk a bit closer and see if it's proportions are worthy of a broom. I do look forward to your feedback on the Bonsai Today Issue for some inspiring images on Zelkovas.

Cheers
Doolz

[Bretts]

I was heading for an informal upright but Broom is also an option.
See here for the technique I would recommend if you decide broom.
http://www.bonsaisite.com/broomelm.html

I would cut vertical to start with carving back on the angle later if you decide to go informal. I probably would not bother trimming the other branches down too much except for where I have marked. The more growth you have the faster the ground layer will happen.
I sometimes use cut paste but I probably wouldn't waste it here. It has a long way to go so I see little point it will heal in time in any event.

I would think the 2 mm wire will be OK. I might use 3mm just in case if I had it. Just wrap the wire around the trunk once and twist tight. If you can get a bit of a bite into the bark it will speed things up a little but I don't think it is important it will swell and work just the same.
I would not cut into the trunk with a knife or add any hormone. I think it is a simple method and think to just leave it simple.