Have I just committed "planticide"?

[Japh]

I finally got a chance to have a go at bare-rooting my Chinese Elm today and pot him properly. The following photos document what happened... I hope I didn't document myself committing "planticide"! With a bit of luck, he might even survive!

(My apologies for the dreadful quality of the photos... hopefully you can still make out what's going on!)

So here's the root-ball before I got stuck in:

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Here it is after I washed the majority of the soil out... this is basically just a big mess of fine roots:

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Slow progress untangling and getting all the crap out... trying to work out what goes where and who belongs to who...:

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Little step back to look at the whole tree with roots almost bare:

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Couple more shots of the roots once basically completely bare... I'm so scared I've basically killed the poor thing :

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Now things speed up, because I'm too scared to have him out of the ground any longer... and because his roots are completely useless for creating a good nebari:

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So hopefully I haven't killed the poor thing! I think his roots are basically a lost cause for ceating a good nebari so I've been thinking of tying some wire around his trunk tightly just above the roots as they are now, and layering the whole tree off those awful roots.

Thoughts please, on my messy-rooted potensai?

[Jamie]

i agree with the roots being a mess there mate.. but you can use the torquinet method to create a new nebari that will radiate around the trunk nicely. i seen a topic on here about that somewhere. you might be able to search it and find it. it seems to work quite well and that will get rid if that messy twisted root system. then you might get a tree from the twisted root system that could offer you a penjing style tree??

[Japh]

i agree with the roots being a mess there mate.. but you can use the torquinet method to create a new nebari that will radiate around the trunk nicely. i seen a topic on here about that somewhere. you might be able to search it and find it. it seems to work quite well and that will get rid if that messy twisted root system. then you might get a tree from the twisted root system that could offer you a penjing style tree??

Thanks! It was that thread about the tourniquet method that made me mention that in my original post actually. So glad I read that, otherwise this might be a lost cause.

More importantly though... do you think the Chinese Elm will survive the procedure I inflicted upon it today?!

[bodhidharma]

Hey Japh, I do not think you will have any problems. You could even have cut of that big ugly root while you had it barerooted. Bit late now get it healthy and start again. Patience ,patience,. patience

[Jamie]

More importantly though... do you think the Chinese Elm will survive the procedure I inflicted upon it today?!

yes it should survive with good after care, craig coussins hand book of bonsai show this in a case study root pruning chinese elms and he took more of than you did and it is very healthy. they are tough and you shouldnt have a prblem, use seasol or similar as per directed other feeds will burn any new roots on the tree and could cause problems. you should be fine mate!
treat it with some tlc now and it will come back real strong
you may have to prune accordingly to allow for the root loss ie. what is below the surface shows what is above, so in other words you might have to take of some foliage to allow the roots to cope with the pruning!!

and as bohdi said, patience

[Japh]

Well I'm pleased to hear it should survive! Most of it's main roots are still on it. Though, the small pot it was in before was definitely majority filled with roots rather than soil!

Hey Japh, I do not think you will have any problems. You could even have cut of that big ugly root while you had it barerooted. Bit late now get it healthy and start again. Patience ,patience,. patience

I don't think I could've gotten rid of the big ugly root. Perhaps you can't tell from the photos, but it curves around a bit and almost all the roots come off it... if I'd cut it off, there would've only been a few measly hair-like roots off where the last curve was.

I'll just try and fatten him up a little and make sure he's healthy. Then will try the tournequet in a few seasons.

I'm a little uncertain about buying from that bonsai nursery again. If this is a relatively freshly re-potted specimen, ready for sale...

[FlyBri]

Gday Japh (& Jamie)!

The good news is that you haven't killed it - in terms of root pruning deciduous trees, you've been quite considerate. The bad news is that the main root is ugly, as you have already pointed out.

The grow box you've chosen will most probably provide excellent conditions for the tree and its roots - I like that the tree (and roots) should have a really nice buffer against wind and temperature fluctuations. BUT (and that's a big 'but') I would address the root issue before deciding to grow the tree out too much.

If it was my tree and I was happy with the movement and potential above ground, I would simply whack it into an easily manageable pot (bonsai or otherwise) and train the tree, ignoring the 'root mess' below. Next year, I might look at ground layering the tree, which means that you can basically abandon the original root system for a vastly improved one (in Bonsai terms, anyway).

There's plenty of time.

Fly.

[Jamie]

well this is true japh. when i look at prospective trees i am buying i always dig a little under the surfae to see what is there if there isnt a decent nebari showing..
you cant be blamed for not knowing what was there till you root pruned tho, chinese elm have a habit of doing that when they are in tube stock to long then slip planted.
maybe go back and mention something to them.?????? you might get a discount on your next tree or something

[MasonC]

hey japh,
i think you have EXTREMELY nice to this plant

[anttal63]

i would rip it out again and chop those roots hard now, wont even bat an eyelid i guaranty you!

[Japh]

If it was my tree and I was happy with the movement and potential above ground, I would simply whack it into an easily manageable pot (bonsai or otherwise) and train the tree, ignoring the 'root mess' below. Next year, I might look at ground layering the tree, which means that you can basically abandon the original root system for a vastly improved one (in Bonsai terms, anyway).

Hi Fly! I guess it's too late for me to go back now... but you're right. I think I probably rushed it a bit (against recommendations ) and I should probably have just left it until next year. Maybe done a little wiring.

Having said that... I couldn't have known the extent of the mess that was below the surface without doing this.

I'd be worried if I just potted him up again that he'd have been through too much and die of shock or something. The guy I bought him off claimed to have re-potted him just a month before I bought him (though I'm doubtful), and I've moved him out of his pot into the grow box, and now I've pulled him back out and bare-rooted him then back in the grow box... would it be too much to then pot him back into his little pot tomorrow?! Poor plant won't know if he's coming or going...

i would rip it out again and chop those roots hard now, wont even bat an eyelid i guaranty you!

I don't think the roots can be saved, there's far too much bending going on to create a proper nebari there. But if, as I said above, you don't think there's been too much trauma already then perhaps I can just pot him up?

If I do that... then I could plant my germinating wisteria seeds in the grow box instead

[63pmp]

HI Japh,

I think your tree will be fine, If worried spray the foliage with water a couple of times a day. Don't over water it, it won't be drinking much for a couple of weeks. If still worried watch the leaves, if they start to wilt put a clear plastic sheet over the styrofoam box and make a green house out of it. Bend 2mm wire into staple shapes and tick them into the styrofoam to hold the plastic down. As to the roots, it would take a long time over many repots to get the nebari any good. Initially cutting it back hard and seeing what grows, then hitting it hard every year, it may take 4 years and still not be a great nebari. It's a much better proposition to air or ground layer and start afresh.

When root pruning, always have a bucket of clean water to dunk the tree into so the roots don't dry out. They will live in a bucket of water completely bare-rooted for 24 hours without harm. So you have all the time you need to decide what to do, as long as the roots stay wet.

Paul

[aaron_tas]

sorry i missed this till now (check the time, im busy as these days)

and i don't know if this is just me, but i don't think those roots are ugly at all.

i try to style a tree according to its nebari or lower trunk because this is the hardest part to change, and if you can see one big problem with your tree but manage to style the problem into a feature then there is no big problem...

if this were a tree on my bench, the entire trunkline would mimick all of that first movement you see in "the ugly root", i can see a cascade, a slanting, and an informal upright tree.

but that may just be me...

i'm going to bed.

[Damian Bee]

Hi Japh,

Does the trunk start off from that large curly root?
THE BIG IF.........if so and if it were mine I would take the trunk right down and restart it just below the top of the curly part and then bend it to suit, that would make a unique tree. The remaining roots could be pulled out and flattened as you are doing with the plate method.
As for planticide, I think it's the grower who is guilty of neglect by planting the seed at the edge of the 50mm tube and then failing to re-pot. I sentence the grower to 3 years soil sieving

(sorry, I just had my coffee)

[alpineart]

Commit , hurry-curry on the thing as Antonio said . Cut it back real hard leaving 25mm from the main trunk hopefully with a couple of roots on it .Scrape the bark at the base dip it in hormone powder and pot it . Then take the severed root and plant it in the box as well .One tree one root cutting .

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.Don't pussy foot around cut the severed root into 1 inch pieces and plant 6 and in 3 months you will be scratching you head trying to work out which shoot to keep on the roots . Progression shown elsewhere .Cheers