Help with direction for Pine

[Redsonic]

This is the most ambitious (read expensive) stock I have purchased so far. It is a Radiata pine from Bonsai Northside, Caboolture.
I was told to leave off repotting until early Autumn, but that now was a good time to work it. I am planning to train it shorter than it is currently, as I will have trouble managing a very large tree.
I would really appreciate your advice; I have shown a tentative direction in the last 2 photos.
Lots of pics:

RadiataBigSep2016_1_Small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_8_Small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_9_Small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_10_small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_11_small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_12_small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_13_small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_14_small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_15_small.jpg

RadiataBigSep2016_16_small.jpg

RadiataBigVirt1.jpg

RadiataBigVirt2.jpg

I plan to remove any bar branches and radiating branches at the same time I trunk chop, but otherwise keep as many branches as possible.
Let me know what you think...

[Jarad]

Have you read up on the in the Wiki?
Monterey Pine (Radiata)

If it was me, I would chop lower to create more taper, but I'm just a noob.

I'm sure you've read this:
[Tutorial] Trunk chopping

[KIRKY]

Agree with Jarad, I too would chop it lower. By chopping at the mark you suggest you will as Jarad pointed out have a long trunk with no taper. If it were mine I would cut from your red mark to half again just above the bushy growth.
I would at this stage not remove any branches. I would wire them all. Remove all downward needles and then assess the tree again. Looking again at front, back etc. then I would decide on new leader, sacrifice branches, and which branches to keep/work.
Cheers
Kirky

[Firecat]

Have you read up on the in the Wiki?
Monterey Pine (Radiata)

If it was me, I would chop lower to create more taper, but I'm just a noob.

I'm sure you've read this:
[Tutorial] Trunk chopping

sure you are
Steve.
Seriously though if anything comes of this I will be trying to follow as I have a grow box of Pines..Jury is out if they are Radiator or something more exotic but will be interested.
As a side note not to high jack but the area harvested is now under 5 meters of water along the banks of Pykes Creek Reservoir along the Western Highway Victoria.
They may be some other type.
Steve.

[Jarad]

Thanks for the compliment Steve, but I am just a mere 2 year old.

Can you air layer Radiata? Seems like there is a lot of trunk there, it would be a shame to waste it.

[kez]

This is really difficult material,

Take this with a grain of salt as I know how it can feel to be really happy bout a purchase only to have someone point out the flaws but this tree has a whole lot of very leggy growth with all branch ends a long way away from the trunk. Anything closer to the trunk is very week, and even cutting to where you have indicated will result in a very taperless first 2/3 of your tree. I also agree that the chosen leader is too long and leggy and there are no branches at all coming of it at this point.

2 options as I see it,

1. Feed the buggery out of it, let everything grow out over spring/summer and cut all new growth back to last years needs (whats currently on the tree) in Autumn. This is the technique used to promote back budding on black/red pine and should work on radiata

2. focus your efforts on building a tree out of this section here

radiata.jpg

This is still a long term process as each your you will turn 1 branch end in to 2, 2 into 4 etc. but the structure to begin seems to be here and it will allow for beter trunk taper etc.

Sorry, i know it's not what you were hoping for, but as far as I am concerned the blame with this lies with Nurseries selling this kind of stock. If it were my nursery I wouldn't expect people to turn stock like this into bonsai in under 10 years, and as such would try harder to provide better material. I don't mean to be harsh but I have bought stuff like this, and in hindsight I don't believe it's good enough on the part of the people providing the bonsai public with material

I hope this helps, and offers something positive

Kerrin

[KIRKY]

Kez, agree with your marked area, for tree to work with. However to leave the tree for another year etc.... Will not develop much in the way of tapper down low where you want it. Better to bite the bullet now, chop, wire remaining branches find new leader etc... That way you start to develop the tree you want now not in twelve months. The lower branches you keep will do more to create ramification where you want it
Also agree feed the hec out of it.
Cheers
Kirky

[matlea]

Agree with kez feed and cut back. Another option could be to thread graft or approach graft some of the branches given they are thin, long and pliable. The difficult part with thread graft will be getting the branch and needles through the hole. I think there was a post on here some time ago where a straw was used as a sheath to wrap needles and push through the hole.
Anyone remember that post?Maybe you could do this on the upper part of the tree as a trial and use the bottom part as kez has said.

[Webos]

G'day redsonic,
From what I see here in your photos, the world is your oyster. When we talk about taper, there is a very common Australian school of thought that trees must have heavy taper in order to be powerful. It's true that heavy masculine trees look good when they are short and fat. But not all bonsai need to possess this trait to be beautiful. Bonsai can also be graceful. Some trees, not only deciduous trees, are beautiful due to their slow taper and gentle movement. Your trunkline has this kind of grace and you have the choice of whether or not you'd like to take advantage of this tree's current strongest attribute...its graceful movement and slow taper.

If you wanted to chop it down and fight against the way this tree is naturally developing, then kez is right. This tree has a long, long way to go. If short and fat were the only way to style a bonsai, then yes, the nurseryman wouldn't have done a good job. But that's simply not true.

Think hard before chopping this tree down low and creating a big scar or Jin. A Jin for the wrong reasons is often an obvious sign that a bonsai was made by man rather than nature.. Bad jins look worse than no jins.

Most importantly, no need to rush. You would hope for this tree to live and be a bonsai for generations beyond us, so no need to make a poorly executed instant bonsai within a couple of years..

As I mentioned, with this tree, the world is your oyster. You have many many branches to choose from and the branches are all young and supple... You choose the ones you like and move them wherever you want.

I'll add a photo of a thin and long tapering Bonsai I found on the Internet just for interests sake.

Adam

[Redsonic]

Hi everyone, and thank you for all your suggestions. I did a long reply after Kez's comments but must have forgotten to press submit
This is only the third tree I have bought as a bonsai starter; the rest of them have been nursery stock with a very long way to go. Although I bought this thinking I would have a more advanced bonsai, I am quite content to wait the years required for its development.
I hear what most of you are saying about the taper, and will seriously consider a short chop as per Kez's diagram. I will go out tomorrow and sit with the tree and look at it again. I was worried about the long branches with no foliage, but figured I had plenty to choose from. I guess I also forgot just how reluctant pines are to back bud.
When I bought this I saw what Adam has described; the tree has taper (until the cluster of branches where I was going to chop), but it is very gradual. Please keep the suggestions coming guys; you are giving me lots to think about, and I am keen to learn.


Steve: re the species of pine, I kept losing yamadori that I thought were Radiata until I realised that they were all Slash Pine growing around here. Apparently Slash Pine much prefer wet conditions.
Here is a species guide I have used:

Distinguishing Pines in SEQ.png

Thanks again for the suggestions, and keep them coming, I will update with photos when I have worked with the tree.

[Lane]

Don't rule out the possibility of a literati bonsai where taper is less of a requisite and you'd want your first branch around 2/3rds of the tree's final height of which you have plenty to choose.

Also, of all the pines, the Radiata is one of the most willing to back bud so don't stress there.

Feed well and let the candles extend then reduce after they harden off for prolific back budding.

Another nice trait of these is they are one of the most flexible trees around so you can bend them more than most would dare to.

[Redsonic]

Don't rule out the possibility of a literati bonsai where taper is less of a requisite and you'd want your first branch around 2/3rds of the tree's final height of which you have plenty to choose.

Also, of all the pines, the Radiata is one of the most willing to back bud so don't stress there.

Feed well and let the candles extend then reduce after they harden off for prolific back budding.

Another nice trait of these is they are one of the most flexible trees around so you can bend them more than most would dare to.

I hear you on the back budding and flexibility. I have a smaller "X-mas" tree Radiata that threw off buds everywhere when I chopped it back, and I have recently almost tied it in knots. Still it will survive the aggressive bending.

[Charliegreen]

Has anyone tried to Graft JBP onto Slash or Caribbean yamadori from North of Bris?

I reckon it could yield results.

[Redsonic]

OK folks, I am going to try to have my cake and eat it too.
I agree that the tree would look better much shorter and am going to chop it where Kez suggested. Rather than waste the top, I figure I will give it a go air layering.

RadiataBigVirt3.jpg

Am I being totally foolish given this would be my first air layer? I have been pretty adventurous in my first year of bonsai, with approach and thread grafting, propagation etc, so I am game to give it a go. This stock is way more advanced than anything else I have played with, though. I gather there is a publication about air layering available from someone on Ausbonsai? Although I have read plenty about air layering, I figure the more I know the better.
Thanks in advance guys.

[Jow]

I don't mean to put a dampener on your plans but if you layer off the top (if it roots) you are left with a straight fairly average base. The interesting movement is that which is higher up. I would look to design a taller tree rather than go the standard trunk chop route.