Blue Cedar Cascade & trimming advice

[count_thumper]

Hi All,

Photos: https://imgur.com/a/l5tRB

Ive recently bought my forst blue cedar, in the hope of making this into a cascade.
Its currently quite small, however this is probably the best stage to get the training going.

As you can see from the photos it has a groove down the base of the trunk, my thought was to follow this and use it as the direction of the casade. Also should I make a trim when doing the cascade, or let it grow out a bit, as its still a youngster?
I cant find a ton of resources on the net as to best practice around cascade, so if you could provide any advice and tips that would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,
Mike

[adge0001]

Are you sure it's a blue? It looks like a standard Atlantic cedar...

...anyway, I'd wire it during summer. I wouldn't bother with wrapping the trunk first. I've done trunk wiring using a wrap and also just wire on the cedar. These trees are so rubbery that you'll need to keep your wire on for years before it starts to hold its shape, and even then, it's no guarantee. That's why I wouldn't bother wrapping it. The best chance to get it to hold would be to let the wire bite in a bit before you take it off. So do it with the right gauge wire and do it carefully. Don't knock those buds off, you won't get them back.... but, that wire you do now, won't need to come off for at least a few years.... I've gone five with no issue.

I haven't trimmed and wired at the same time so I'm not sure how it would react to both; I also air on the side of caution. Have fun![THUMBS UP SIGN]


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[KIRKY]

You can work on these pretty much all year. Wire at anytime. They don't like to be repotted too often so every two to three years is fine, for young trees. Less once they are refind. I have a few I only do every five to six years. They are very slow growing so wire to the shape you want, then look at triming anything that doesn't suit the style you are wanting to create. Also they don't heal scares well so watch major cuts. See if you can leave them and do a jin at a later date. Feed during Spring thru to including Autumn, including liquid feed at least monthly.
They are pretty flexible so you should be able to wire in a lot of movement. I was told you can almost tie a knot it them. However, I managed to snap two in one week. so don't beleive everything you hear. Watch for wire cutting in, it is slow to grow so its easy to forget they are wired. Better practice is to rewire before it cuts in. They do take years to hold their shape without wire. Wire left to cut in will take forever to heal.
You have a prize worthy crop of chickweed that needs to be removed from the top of your pot, before it spreads.
Cheers
Kirky

[count_thumper]

Ah crap, perhaps it is a standard; I got ripped off! haha

I'll give this a while tomorrow and post some picture, hopefully you can provide some feedback - given this will be my second time wiring eek!

The chickweed adds character ...On a side note does it have negative effect on the tree?

Thanks,

[KIRKY]

All weeds have a negative effect on bonsai. You must remember that these trees rely solely on you for food. Roots cannot look for nourishment they are in pots. So why would you have weeds compete for the trees nourishment?
You can make the tree anything you want standard, cascade, informal upright, literati, it is your choice. Whatever you decide it will require wiring.
Cheers
Kirky

[alpineart]

Hi c-t' I have found the easiest way to get good movement into a cedar like the material shown is by winding or zig-zagging it around a stake such as the one supporting the trunk now , longer if your using the full height of the tree.

Use electrical tape to hold it firmly into position on the stake not wire , this allows the trunk to slide up the stake as it grows , allow 12 months of vertical growth positioning side branches as required then simple secure the point of the trunk to become the apex cut the stake at ground level and pull end of the stake down to create the cascade and secure with a hook and hold / anchor wire .

Leave the stake in position for another 12 months and it will be set as a cascade or semi cascade with both up and down and sideways movement , My cedar cascades spend 30 of the growing season laying on their side so the tail doesn't weaken and die off , the apex becomes the dominant growth area hence the pots are laid over for a period during the growing season .

Some tutorials would show the process better but you should get the idea .

Cheers Alpineart

[Daluke]

Hi,

I don't want to deter you - but cascade is one of the hardest styles to get right (even for the seasoned pro).

I read an article about what a cascade should look like - basically srtle it as an informal upright bonsai then put it on it's side.

If you have time to get a copy of Deborah Koreshoff's book on bonsai I found it great for explaining techniques and feel my cascade style has improved since reading it - https://www.amazon.com/Bonsai-Its-Scien ... 0864391943

Lots of feed, water and sun for the cedars. Their natural environment is mountain regions so try and simulate harsh conditions.

Good luck

[count_thumper]

Hi All

I went ahead and wired in what was an attempted cascade, however I didn't check the forum this morning & missed a lot of valuable input as a result.

Anywho, here are images: https://imgur.com/a/l5tRB

As it was my second time wiring, it felt strange using such thick wire, yet I think it's necessary given the bendyness of the tree.

By lay the tree on its side, you mean lay the pot down on it's side? sorry if thats a dumb question.

Thanks All,

[KIRKY]

Hi, sorry tried to see your pictures can only see the first two from the other day.
Are you able to load them on this forum?
Cheers
Kirky

[alpineart]

Hi c_t , I would reduce the long branches by 50 % from the mid section to the outer tail leaving all the growth at the base of the plant , this is where the energy is require to form the apex of the cascade . Where the apex is require put a more pronounced bend 70-90 degree's rather than the long gentle arch the whole trunk has now , More movement sideways and up and down would also be an improvement . Cedars tend to straighten out quite a bit after the wire is removed so its better to have extreme bends rather than slight bends , another wire maybe required here .

With this tree I would leave the pot in its normal upright position this will allow the apex to form .This Cedrus Deodara has had die back at the tail

P1120225.JPG

P1120230.JPG

, the apex become the prominent growth area when sit upright hence it spends up to 50% of the growth period tilted or laying over so the tail becomes the apex of the tree again and the apex becomes a side branch as per normal upright tree .This needs a major trim of at least 50%, just haven't found the time .

Cheers. Alpine

[count_thumper]

Love your work Alpine Art, it looks great. I understand what you mean, looking at the pictures.

I guess, I'll take 2 at this baby with trimming back the branches and more wire. Perhaps I'll give raffia a shot to get the bends that you mentioned.

(On a side note, I love Myrtleford; I use to play at the Easter tennis tournament there )

[alpineart]

Hi c_t,This was wired a few months ago at the Albury Show

P1120226.JPG

P1120229.JPG

, the wire is biting in now hence the reason I dont like to wire cedars as I don't get to watch them close enough , original a purpose grown seedling not for a cascade but informal upright then using the bamboo stake it was converted to a cascade, 50-70 % of the growth was removed when wired at the Show , now it need a good trim . Not trying to hyjack your topic but help with info

Myrtleford is a nice quiet spot except on days like today , half the city is here with the annual market .

Cheers . Alpine

[count_thumper]

Thanks Alpine,

Not Hi jacking at all, quite helpful indeed.

I've now added additional wire, with particular emphasis on the trunk...and removed some foliage as advised

When should I take off the wire & re apply to prevent it from cutting into the tree?

Mike

[Theodore]

Count

Take the wire off the day before it starts cutting in

You will need to keep your eye on it as there are many factors that will determine the rate of growth.

Better to remove early and reapply in my opinion.

Theo

[count_thumper]

Hi All,
Though I'd gain some advice on growing cascade during spring / summer?